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have i(we) stepped in too deep?

max ping's picture
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started by max ping on September 4, 2007

hello all, i have enjoyed learning here for about a week, trying not to ask questions that already have an answer.
for some reason, not exactly sure what prompted it, i want to try a tri.
when i came up with the idea my son said he'd like to do one too (teenager). so, i'm a cyclist and figuring since my resting pulse is in the forties and i climb alot of mountains here in east TN on my bike it would be no problem. my son felt the same.
our race is 1000 m swim, 21 mi. bike, and 8 k run.

o.k. ... so neither of us can swim. i mean we can float and push ourselves through the water but when we tried to do the freestyle with the breath, well, we couldn't get 25 m! (we both really, REALLY, respect swimmers now).
anyhow, at long last here is my question.
we can now do 50 m freestyle now, and may be close to our required swim length by oct. 6, BUT, if we aren't, will we be the only suckers out there changing strokes? and whether we are or aren't, will it cost us so much time that we may as well stay home?

djrez4's picture
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djrez4 posted 51 weeks ago.

You'll see people doing all sorts of things in the water. Sure, it'll cost you time, but your first tri is a learning experience as much as it is a race.

Look into local private swim coaching. If you're both blank slates, you should be able to pick up proper techniques pretty quickly.

-Dave

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azstinger11 posted 51 weeks ago.

Oh no trust me there are tons of people out there that change stroke, tread water, cling to buoys and/or kayaks. It terms of time it may hurt but shouldn't put you out of contention in your respective age groups. You should be able to make up plenty of ground of the bike it sounds like, and the run isn't too far right lol? I'd say go for it, and I think its awesome your doing this as a father/son thing!

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Nutty posted 51 weeks ago.

Yeah you see just about everything in the water. Especiall if you get lucky and do a race with a lot of other newbies. I did my first race almost entirely on my back. My 4th race a couple weeks ago was actually my first that i was able to stay in freestyle for the full swim. So dont worry, you wont be alone.

-Alan

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RV's picture
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RV posted 51 weeks ago.

There will be people out there doing the entire distance using other strokes i.e. breast stroke and even side stroke. Key is to get through it as comfortable as possible - not struggling and going into O2 debt - that will adversely affect the rest of your race.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

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PJT posted 51 weeks ago.

Like everyone else said, you'll see it all in terms of swim strokes.

I would suggest starting at the back and outside of your starting wave. 2 reasons for this, 1 altruistic and 1 selfish:
1. You're more likely to kick someone if you're doing breaststroke or sidestroke.
2. If you're slow, people may swim over you. Starting at the back minimizes contact, which minimizes the chance that you will panic.

If the race is wetsuit-legal, consider renting or borrowing tri wetsuits, as the extra float from those really can help.

alowrun's picture
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alowrun posted 51 weeks ago.

Whew!
What a relief to read this thread. I can swim, using the crawl comfortably for a while. But having my first mile swim in a race context this Sunday, it feels good to know I can just chill and use different strokes if I have to. I often get frightened at the start, but I'm sure this will help calm the nerves.

Thanks for this post!

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

-A-Low
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Iron Dan's picture
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Iron Dan posted 51 weeks ago.

I was having the same problem with swimming when I began training for a tri. I figured out that it was terrible swim form and not that I was out of swim shape.

All the swimming I had done was with a pull bouy as it was the only exercise that I could do after a complete knee reconstruction (I was able to swim 2000 yards with no problem). Once my knee got strong enough that I could swim without a pull bouy, I could make it 35-40 yards before I was completely out of breath. Swimming is not an exercise that should make you out of breath so quickly unless you are trying to "sprint" in the pool. What I found was that I was kicking way to much, which the pull had isolated out of my stroke since it takes the legs out of the swim motion.

I think that the swim problems that you are having can be easily fixed so that you can swim the entire distance freestyle. I would suggest getting someone who is a good swimmer (either a coach or friend) to try to help show you proper stoke mechanics. My wife helped me figure everything out and ever since then I have been fine swimming. I have gotten to the point now where my legs almost drag behind me and are not in use, so they are nice and fresh for the bike and run.

TryScott's picture
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TryScott posted 51 weeks ago.

When my brother did his 750m swim, there were people that stopped at each lifeguard to rest on their boards. I wasn't there, but he said there were 4 - 5 places to stop and rest during the swim.

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stewarba posted 51 weeks ago.

It sounds like your a fairly new swimmer, so you haven't necessarily commited to muscle memory an bad habits or anyhting like that. I would recommend getting the total immersion freestyle dvd and book. I recently completed my first tri and while I got through it, I was very uncomfortable. The TI method intrigues me in that stroke economy seems very good and the TI method is contructed from the ground up to help you learn the skills.

Anyone else use the TI swim method? I'm about 3/4 through with my drills and I think my stroke is about to start coming around and become more fluid. I should be in the pool in a couple of hours ;-)

Goals in writing are dreams with deadlines – Brian Tracy

2008 Sprint Tri A race goals
S: 500m in 10:00 – FS Stroke only
B: 22mph avg over course
R: 5K <= 25:00
Place top 50% for my age group

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Sloswimr posted 51 weeks ago.

I met a guy in tampa that had done 5 sprint Tris but couldn't swim more the 25M. He swam from Kayak to kayak. I met him at a Masters swim class. He wanted to do Oly distance. With a few months training he did St Anthony's without using a Kayak.

As I understand the rules you can stop (even stand up if shallow enough); you just cannot make forward progress other than by swimming.

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kylie posted 51 weeks ago.

Sloswimr;78472 wrote:
As I understand the rules you can stop (even stand up if shallow enough); you just cannot make forward progress other than by swimming.

It can vary race to race, but by USAT rules:
"4.2 Bottom Contact and Resting. A participant may stand on the bottom or rest by holding an inanimate object such as a buoy, boat, rope or floating object. Excluding the bottom, a participant shall not use any inanimate object to gain forward progress."

So you can move forward if you are walking, but not by using any other inanimate object.

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max ping's picture
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max ping posted 51 weeks ago.

wow! thank you all for the encouragement! the great thing is that my son and i both love swimming now and are really psyched to improve on it. he actually said it first but i felt the same way. he said "i really feel good after swimming, unlike the bike where you feel whipped, sweaty, gritty, and just plain spent". not that i plan to get off the bike, but i (we) have a great thing to do in the winter.
i got into cycling via knee surgery, so i can run, but i try to avoid it.
i spent my teen years in hawaii, so i am comfortable in the water (no fear), but the skill, man i just never realized there was so much to swimming.

tonight we ran into a couple of guys at our local community center pool... training for a different tri! man this is so cool.

azstinger... you don't know the half of it
my parents divorced when i was twelve, i was so unsure of parenting him at this age since i never had a father in my life at his age. so yes it is cool, very cool. and fun!

anyone hear of the lake wautuga tri that we are doing? its near Boone North Carolina , i think this is its second year.

wirebook's picture
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wirebook posted 51 weeks ago.

Being a fairly new swimmer, I know what you mean about 50m being difficult at first. I started back in April and could barely make it across a 25m pool in one shot. But practice is really all it takes. Within a month at 3 times a week (W/F/Su) I was able to work up to nearly a mile (with about 3-4 30 second breaks). Now I have no issue going 2600-3000 yards nonstop. Just three times a week is all it took.

When I first started splashing around the pool I sorta followed this website:

http://ruthkazez.com/SwimWorkouts/ZeroTo1mile.html

I also started off doing bilateral breathing as my starting point - even though I could barely breath at all. I'm so happy I decided to do that from the begining. It felt weird for about the first day, but since my body didn't know any better it wasn't a big deal. It's really helped - especially in keeping a staight line in OW.

wirebook's picture
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wirebook posted 51 weeks ago.

Oh - and one last piece of advice. Since your race is in openwater, if at any point you (or your son) starts to feel dizzy/losing control, etc... remember the rule of thumb.

Simply turn over on your back and lay there and float for a moment. You'll feel better shortly. It's the quickest way to get yourself out of trouble while still staying in the race. Plus, 15 seconds floating to regroup yourself is much better then DNF'ing or worse.

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m2tall2 posted 51 weeks ago.

Huh, interesting the USAT rules only say no forward progress by holding onto an inanimate object. Makes it sounds like another person could pull you, or a dolphin. :) Not that anyone would want that... But I'm sure that's probably covered in an overall rule not related to just the swim portion.

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kylie posted 51 weeks ago.

m2tall2;78551 wrote:
Huh, interesting the USAT rules only say no forward progress by holding onto an inanimate object. Makes it sounds like another person could pull you, or a dolphin. Not that anyone would want that... But I'm sure that's probably covered in an overall rule not related to just the swim portion.

Yeah, I was wondering the same. But found:

Article 3, 3.4.d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon.

So that rules out another person... still waiting to hear about the dolphin ;) Although I guess that could be covered by:

Article 3, 3.4.k. Unauthorized Equipment. No participant shall use any equipment which the Head Referee determines to be improper, including but not limited to equipment which might provide an unfair advantage or endanger other participants. Unless otherwise provided for in these Rules, any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

The rules can actually have some surprises... check out the USAT rules if you are curious :)

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max ping's picture
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max ping posted 51 weeks ago.

wirebook,
thanks for the link, my swim workouts had no structure... until now.

i've run across several swim videos that show freestyle, but i haven't found other strokes. since i intend to swim through the winter i'd like to learn some others, anybody seen online videos anywhere?

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Socket posted 51 weeks ago.

USAT Rules article 3.4g: "Unfair Advantage. No participant shall use his body, head, arms, or legs to gain an unfair advantage, or to push, pull, hold, strike, or force through one or more participants. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty."

Does it count as "unfair advantage" that everyone else is using their body, arms, and legs to be faster than me? I think there should be time penalties.... :p

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kylie posted 51 weeks ago.

Socket;78686 wrote:
USAT Rules article 3.4g: "Unfair Advantage. No participant shall use his body, head, arms, or legs to gain an unfair advantage, or to push, pull, hold, strike, or force through one or more participants. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty."

Does it count as "unfair advantage" that everyone else is using their body, arms, and legs to be faster than me? I think there should be time penalties.... :p

Naw... it just means they used their training time and/or genetics to unfair advantage ;)

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