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Race strategy???

Dan Smith's picture
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started by Dan Smith on May 30, 2007

What is a good race strategy for someone who is a weak cyclist but relatively strong swimmer and runner?

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craigery posted 1 year ago.

Swim fast, try not to lose too much time on the bike and then run like the devil is chasing you.

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hollywood1 posted 1 year ago.

train your bike leg more than your swim and run leg!

seriously though, swim hard, work consitently on the bike and run like you stole something!

dont get bitter, get better

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Triguy98 posted 1 year ago.

hollywood1;69323 wrote:
train your bike leg more than your swim and run leg!

seriously though, swim hard, work consitently on the bike and run like you stole something!

Or actually steal something so you REALLY have to run... kinda reminds me of a lame Brick training joke I read somewhere one time:
For lightning fast bricks- get some darker clothes and head down to a somewhat seedy part of town, wait till you see a police unit. Pull down your mask and throw a brick through a window of a building or car. Now run like hell. Going to be you fastest run ever :rolleyes:

Life is short. Play hard and get dirty doing it.

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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.

Cycling is my weakest discipline, too. I usually just cruise the swim (not too easy, though), book it on the bike, and then run like hell. Races are won on the run, you just can't start too far bike from the bike. With the swim, so much of it is technique that pushing harder will make less of a difference than it will on the run or bike. For example, I can push a 19 or cruise a 20 on a swim, but push a 1:02 or cruise a 1:06 on the bike (on a flat course). It's better to crank it on the bike. If you have enough bricks under your belt, going hard on the bike should only slow your 10k down by about a minute, maybe two, from your stand-alone 10k time.

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-Matt
Not fast enough.

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brittda posted 1 year ago.

cycling is my weakness. I wont probably "really" train for the swim until mid month (doing Canada in August). I have been focusing more on my cycling to get better (IT IS SO HARD!!!) . That is my recomendation :)

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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

I'm gonna say that races are finished with a run, but won on the bike. If you look at the any given race, the overall top finishers almost always have the fastest bike splits but not always the fastest run splits. I'd would agree that you should work your bike more and make it less of a liability and more of an opportunity to put you in contention to allow your run to really make a difference, beacuse if you get off the bike mid-pack, it won't matter how fast you can run, it will be too late. The only excpetion is in long course racing, where the differences aren't as pronounced.
It's all about the bike! :)

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Dan Smith's picture
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Dan Smith posted 1 year ago.

hollywood1;69323 wrote:
train your bike leg more than your swim and run leg!

The plurality of my training is biking (~46%). I do two 3 hour rides during the week plus a long ride on the weekend wheras I am only swimming 15,000 yards and running 50 miles a week with my long run no more than 3 hours.

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

What dist. are you working/looking at?? 1/2IM, full???

BBB
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kona_expat posted 1 year ago.

Initially, as you work on your biking, let yourself go easy on the bike, and you will have one of the fastest run splits. The problem is as you become stronger on the bike, to know how HARD to go on the bike and still be able to unleash that awesome run. This is where a power meter helps you, as you can "try out" different bike pacing strategies to understand just how hard you CAN go and still run well.

It's easy to bring up your biking with hard, focused work. Since you are a strong swimmer, you probably aren't penalizing yourself very much at all by using your swim fitness to go as fast as you can.

You actually have a very good problem! Rock on!

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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

My advice:
Cut the swim back to 10-12K per week, cut the run down by 10-15 miles per week, add an additional 2 hour ride per week.

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Bryan

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beads1985 posted 1 year ago.

You will have to do some work before race day.

Get on the bike and work on it,

After I started working more on the bike it definitely made me feel better when it came time to run.:D

Nothing to it, but to do it

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Riverbrady posted 1 year ago.

Ditto with Bryan here. If you're trying to improve your bike I'd count 3 workouts as too low. Generally I'd shoot for more in the 4-5 range for a bit while cutting back on your swimming and running.

Additionally, if you're trying to build strength on the bike, don't necessarilly make everything 3+ hour rides. A good hour long hill session at regular intervals will do wonders, regardless of what distance you're racing.

"Care more than others think is wise, risk more than others think is safe, dream more than others think is practical, expect more than others think is possible."

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

Am I reading this wrong?? He asked "What is a good race strategy" He didn't ask for tips on BECOMING a better biker, although he would like to be, as we all would. Anyways, my 2 cents:

I would say, from your bio, for half IM the race strategy for bike would best as:

Bike: Start low Z3 bring it up to low Z4 in the second half, but you have to train that way before the race so that you can sustain this.

BBB
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kylie posted 1 year ago.

heh BBB go for a run... you sound grumpy :) And to me it seems kinda like the replies applies to the original question... yes, it was race strategy... but isn't how you train one of the biggest parts of race strategy?? Especially since "never try something new on race day".

BBB does the half IM strategy you gave (low Z3 and into low Z4) apply generally, or is that targeted for newer bikers?

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

kyillee;69367 wrote:
heh BBB go for a run... you sound grumpy :) And to me it seems kinda like the replies applies to the original question... yes, it was race strategy... but isn't how you train one of the biggest parts of race strategy?? Especially since "never try something new on race day".

BBB does the half IM strategy you gave (low Z3 and into low Z4) apply generally, or is that targeted for newer bikers?

low blood sugar, trying to lose some wheight (translation...hungry)....strategy is what I know some elite AGs use. Could be for all I guess as long as you train in those zones. Bottom line is that you will ride or what ever in the Zones you train in. Go above that in a race scenario and you'll blow up (been there done that).

BBB
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Riverbrady posted 1 year ago.

Yeah, tis true.

I know I overlooked the original question myself a bit and jumped on the "bike is the weakest leg" tips...that was after I saw 15k of swimming and 50 miles of running a week, and only three bike rides.

As far as strategy goes, I'd most likely follow what BBB posted above Z3 - Z4 through the bike, leaving plenty in the tank for a faster run.

"Care more than others think is wise, risk more than others think is safe, dream more than others think is practical, expect more than others think is possible."

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

But I may add that the srtgy for IM is different for the bike! And still different for Olys. That's whay I asked what race dist. first.

BBB
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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

bluebirdbiker;69388 wrote:
But I may add that the srtgy for IM is different for the bike! And still different for Olys. That's whay I asked what race dist. first.

Just to keep the off topic chat going....:p
Well, no, I still think the race can be put away on the bike all the way down to an Olympic. I had a horrendous swim at my last Olympic, everyone but me was wearing a wet suit and it showed in the splits, I was barley top 30 out of the water! :eek:
Was the fatsest bike and 5th fastest run and finished 6th. At IMAZ, 161st out of the water, 26th off the bike, 25th at the end of the run.

It's always all about the bike!

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

Red5;69392 wrote:
Just to keep the off topic chat going....:p
Well, no, I still think the race can be put away on the bike all the way down to an Olympic. I had a horrendous swim at my last Olympic, everyone but me was wearing a wet suit and it showed in the splits, I was barley top 30 out of the water! :eek:
Was the fatsest bike and 5th fastest run and finished 6th. At IMAZ, 161st out of the water, 26th off the bike, 25th at the end of the run.

It's always all about the bike!

Not what I mean. I mean that the HR zone plan for an IM is different to that of other race distances. You would NEVER do a bike split of Z3-4 for an IM distance race. That would leave you with nothing to run on. That's what I am talking about. But for a half it is possible if that's the way you train and you are a good runner like he is. But if it's the bike or the run that separates you, that is another issue.

BBB
There are no excuses - so don't look for them. As a product of your own choices, you directly determine your life outcomes.
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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

Gotcha, Libor...

This is a good thread. Dan's inital inquiry was what should his race strategy be if he's not as strong on the bike. Assuming his race isn't this weekend, the only advice we could give would be 'do the best you can'. Not very helpful, for sure.
What we can provide is advice on how to minimize that issue, so it's more valuable to show him how to train vs. how to race. He also was good enough to share his training detail.
He's spending too much time in the pool even for an IM race. Maybe he pick up a few min. coming out of the water but all those hours per month in the water could go toward his bike and save 10's of min in a race.
60 miles a week running, I did that one week over the course of 10 months of IM training. Way too many running miles. Running is very hard on the body and and that type of mileage requires some decent recovery. Dial back the mileage and you again have more time to ride and reap the advantages of cross training on the no impact bike.

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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.

Red5;69392 wrote:

It's always all about the bike!

Not ITU!! :)

Anyway, a little support on cutting back the running:

I jumped up to 50/wk for a while in the beginning of the season when I was trying to learn how to run, but got hurt after only a few weeks. All I could do was bike, so I put in 300+/wk and raced in April with almost no running under my belt in two months (seriously, maybe 5 miles/wk) and still ran a PR. All the bike fitness carried over surprisingly well. When you're doing 50 miles/wk, there are a lot of 5-10 mile easy/moderate runs. All I do now is run really hard when I need to and make up those easy runs with bike rides. I'll do one tempo run, one track workout (both as bricks, of course) and one long run, so maybe 20-ish miles/wk. I'm still recovering a little from ITBS, but even after a full recovery I'll probably do only 30. Triathlon training and running training are very different and you really don't need that much mileage. My roommate only does about 30 (I follow his training plan a bit....he's a lot faster than I am...lol) and he's done 1:52 non-drafting (33-high off the bike).

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Not fast enough.

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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

UFTriGator;69407 wrote:
Not ITU!! :)

Drafter!!! :D

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fittycent posted 1 year ago.

UFTriGator;69407 wrote:
Triathlon training and running training are very different and you really don't need that much mileage.

Absolutely true in my case. 50 miles in a week would break me! Others can handle serious volume a lot better, but I get by pretty well (and am still improving) on about 25 miles/week.

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toni posted 1 year ago.

Dan Smith;69321 wrote:
What is a good race strategy for someone who is a weak cyclist but relatively strong swimmer and runner?

Are you doing the Issaquah Sprint Tri on Saturday?? If so, I might see you there. That'll be my first tri of the season.

Check out emeraldcitymultisport.com if you're interested in joining and training with a tri club.

-Toni
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. - FDR

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

Guys I was up to 60/wk running around christmas 06 and the only way to run that kind of mileage is to go slow, way below AeT anthing above and you are risking. It can be done but must be done at a slow pace.

BBB
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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

Personally, I think 60miles+ per week of running should only happen during your big run week a few weeks out from the main event. I just don't see any fitness benefit to be derivied from that kind of mileage on your legs for the reasons I stated above. The cummulative fatigue and muscular damage can have a real adverse effect on your training, decreasing the quality of your workouts and their benefit.
Just my $.02 :)

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Dan Smith posted 1 year ago.

Thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it.

So, let's say I back off the running mileage (I thought 50 miles/week was backing off), and add extra biking workouts. My biking may improve but realistically given my running and swimming background, biking is still going to be my weak leg.

Given that biking will likely always be my weak leg, what would an appropriate race strategy be?

Thanks,

Dan

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Riverbrady posted 1 year ago.

Biking may be a weaker leg, but it doesn't have to be a weak leg, if that makes sense.

There seems to be two key points: how your bike will be this race season (and it's accompanying race strategy), and how your bike will be in the future (and it's accompanying race strategy).

For the short term it depends on distance. If you're doing sprints, generally it's close to all out for the entire race, so what you can do...you can do. For longer stuff, I'd refer to BBB's note above. Race, and train so you can race, in whatever low Z3 - low Z4 is for you. Figure out what you can sustain on the bike that will not kill your run.

For olympics, I've always been told to treat them similar to sprints, but at a slightly lower effort level...effectively running the majority of the race just under the LT threshold. Then again, Olympics are the distance I don't have any practical experience with yet, of all things.

Then again, for the longer stuff, that advice is pretty spot on regardless of whether your bike is weak or strong. When it comes down to it I agree that the best "race strategy" for the long term is looking at how to increase your power/stamina on the bike.

"Care more than others think is wise, risk more than others think is safe, dream more than others think is practical, expect more than others think is possible."

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bluebirdbiker posted 1 year ago.

A common race stgy that many use for longer races like the IM and 1/2 IM are as follows:

Swim IM & 1/2IM: basically as you would normaly swim an endurance swim. The key is to come out of it feeling refreshed and ready for the remainder. Not tired. This should be accomplished during training.

1/2IM - Bike & Run As you have trained pretty much but not faster cause you will blow up.

Bike: Start low Z3 and go to low Z4 for the second half of it.
RunL: Start in Z3 for first half and for the remaining 1/4 do Z4 with final bit in all out what ever you have in you in Z5

IM - Bike & Run
Bike: Z2 ride, not above. You may want to enter high Z2. Finish last few miles in very low Z3
Run: start Z1 (low to mid) to about 5bpm into Z2 for the first half mary then for the next 5kms into Z3, then into Z4 for the next 5-6kms finally finishing the remaining 5 or so in Z5 or what ever you have in you.

As I have heard, the real part of the race starts at km 10 (last 6mi). That is what all say IS the race for am IM when one, if the cards are played out right, can pass most of your AG. So they say. Still have to get all this tright though. Some day :P

BBB
There are no excuses - so don't look for them. As a product of your own choices, you directly determine your life outcomes.
Don't think, just do.
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Red5 posted 1 year ago.

All good advice. I will echo Riverbrady's comment regarding effort levels of various distances. For a Sprint, it's all done at LT. For an Olympic, it's all done AT, for long course it's all done aerobically.
For you Dan, for a sprint bike, go as fast as you can, your run will still be there. For an Olympic, you will need to manage your bike pace somewhat, so averaging a few beats below AT will leave you with enough to run hard for 10K, even close to LT...it won't matter, you will be almost done. For a well trained athlete, it's really tough to blow up at the Olympic distance, it's just too short.
For long course, you need to adjust your training to all aerobic, as BBB said above.

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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.

I agree with Red's advice, I just wanted to elaborate a bit with my experience. One thing that I've noticed about biking (I don't know if this is for everyone else or just me because biking is my weakest leg) is that it hurts a lot more for the same energy expenditure when compared to the other disciplines. What I'm saying is that the burning in my legs at AT on the bike is a lot more than what it would be on the run at AT. To put it another way, I may be able to hold some given RPE on the bike for an hour, but only for 20 min on the run. I think you can really crank it a lot harder than you think on the bike and still have plenty left for the run (as long as your nutrition is planned well). Basically, as long as you follow reasonably closely to the HR zones Bryan was talking about, don't be scared to go hard on the bike. I feel that the bike is where you should be going the hardest. Then worry about running people down (this is where I do the most passing/getting passed).

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-Matt
Not fast enough.

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hollywood1 posted 1 year ago.

Dan Smith;69338 wrote:
The plurality of my training is biking (~46%). I do two 3 hour rides during the week plus a long ride on the weekend wheras I am only swimming 15,000 yards and running 50 miles a week with my long run no more than 3 hours.

remember it's quality not quantity!!!
I do 4 sessions a week on the bike. 1 long ride, 1 brick. and 2 focusing on S&E during winter on speed in summer and i can pull out a 59 on a flat OD course.

dont get bitter, get better