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Pete L.'s picture
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started by Pete L. on March 11, 2007

I've been working on my technique over the past month or so, and I feel like I've made a lot of improvements. However, when I see some of the times people here are mentioning, it seems like I'm still really slow.

When I try to swim fast, it seems like, for the most part, i dont' go much faster, only I struggle against the water more. I've just gotten a polar HRM so I'll be able to better time my laps, but I'm wondering what is the next step to see a real time increase. My current pace is right around 2:00 per 100m, or just under (1:55) if I'm feeling really smooth and fluent.

When I swim (2-3 times per week) its usually for a workout of about 45 minutes to an hour, and is mostly just swimming laps, trying to incorporate various drills that have been explained to me here. Usually at the end I'll try and do a fast 200 at super fast pace, which is more like super-struggle pace.

I'm doing about 14-16 strokes per length (25m).

Keebler71's picture
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Keebler71 posted 1 year ago.

Just like running, your speed is the product of stroke rate and your distance per stroke (stride rate and stride length for running). 14-16 strokes per length is very good - too good in fact for the pace you seem to be going. This makes me think that either you are about 7 ft tall and just have an enormous reach, or you are perhaps holding your glide too long and losing energy (stroke rate is too low). I know - stroke count, stroke count, stroke count... but you can be taking too few strokes if you are holding your glide so long that you slow down significantly between each stroke, in which case you are speding too much energy of each stroke accelerating back up to speed. Do you feel surges of momentum with each stroke? If so you might want to increase your stroke rate slightly and see if that helps.

kkocan's picture
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kkocan posted 1 year ago.

I agree with Keebler, something doesn't sound right. You are swimming with 3-4 less strokes per length than I would and I can routinely swim a sub 1:20 avg per 100 in workouts. Have you had anyone look at your stroke?

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Ironmom's picture
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Ironmom posted 1 year ago.

Pete L.;64053 wrote:
I've been working on my technique over the past month or so, and I feel like I've made a lot of improvements. However, when I see some of the times people here are mentioning, it seems like I'm still really slow.

Congrats on your progress, and remember it's not really fair to yourself to compare with anyone else. Some of us here have been swimming competitively for 5 - 20 years, some people have bodies that are more optimized for swimming (flotation, body length, shoulder flexibility, hand and foot size, among others, all effect swimming), and some have put in hundreds of thousands of yards of technique work. It all adds up, just have faith that as you are improving, you will continue to improve. It's great that you're taking the time to work on your technique, that is the surest path to getting where you want to go!

Pete L.;64053 wrote:
When I try to swim fast, it seems like, for the most part, i dont' go much faster, only I struggle against the water more.

My mantra for swimming fast is "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, therefore slow is fast". I try to swim powerfully but smoothly to increase speed. Merely increasing the rotation of the arms and kicking of the legs is often an exercise in frustration and struggle.

Pete L.;64053 wrote:
When I swim (2-3 times per week) its usually for a workout of about 45 minutes to an hour, and is mostly just swimming laps, trying to incorporate various drills that have been explained to me here. Usually at the end I'll try and do a fast 200 at super fast pace, which is more like super-struggle pace.

I'm doing about 14-16 strokes per length (25m).

Is this in the pool that you posted a video of before? Are you sure that it's a 25m pool? I thought when I watched that video before that it was probably a 20 yard pool as it looked very short. Even with your stroke in the video, with very little glide, it was only taking you 15 strokes per length. That's how many a strong swimmer takes in a 25m pool with a *lot* of glide, so I'd be surprised if your pool is 25m, given the information you've supplied here. If you are indeed taking 15 strokes per length in a 25m pool, but swimming 2:00 per 100, you're probably either kicking a lot more than you should be, or overextending your glide to the point that you're bleeding off speed.

Regardless, the road to swimming speed is still technique and then working on power with good form. If you can post another video here of your technique now that you've been working on it with drills, folks here can probably help you refine some more. If you can get a coach to look at your form in real life, that's probably your best bet, because it's hard to do technique work on your own when you can't see what you're doing.

Blue Skies, -Robin-
http://ironmom.blogspot.com/

tri-ac's picture
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tri-ac posted 1 year ago.

be methodical about your practice if you're not already...

one thing that was new to me that helps build the engine is to time your rest periods...not time how long they take, but establish a time to rest as part of the workout... so, with a 10x100 set, give yourself 20s to rest between repeats as a starting point with 1 min at the end before your next set. then as you feel your improvement, shorten the rest period incrementally over several weeks...i think you will also notice your interval times improve as well...

Pete L.'s picture
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Pete L. posted 1 year ago.

Ironmom;64082 wrote:
Merely increasing the rotation of the arms and kicking of the legs is often an exercise in frustration and struggle.

This is exactly the type of thing I'm trying to avoid

Quote:
Is this in the pool that you posted a video of before? Are you sure that it's a 25m pool?

Its not the same pool. I'm in a pool at Gold's gym now, but I'm not 100% sure its a 25 yard pool. I am gliding quite a bit, though, so that could be the cause. I do feel surges forward as I start into my stroke.

Quote:
you're probably either kicking a lot more than you should be, or overextending your glide to the point that you're bleeding off speed.

I think this is very likely the case. I'll measure the pool though, to be sure. I'll see if I can get another video together. I really want to get a coach though. How much should I expect to pay for decent coaching, and how often should I expect to meet with a coach?

I really appreciate everyone's help. I've never been a good swimmer, and almost didn't graduate from the boy scouts because of it. So now its really important to me to become a good swimmer. It may be time to get an in person coach.

Pete L.'s picture
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Pete L. posted 1 year ago.

tri-ac;64085 wrote:
be methodical about your practice if you're not already...

one thing that was new to me that helps build the engine is to time your rest periods...not time how long they take, but establish a time to rest as part of the workout... so, with a 10x100 set, give yourself 20s to rest between repeats as a starting point with 1 min at the end before your next set. then as you feel your improvement, shorten the rest period incrementally over several weeks...i think you will also notice your interval times improve as well...

I feel sort of ignorant here, when you say 10X100 that means 10 sets of 100m, right? So when would I take the 20s rest, and when would I take the 1 minute rest? Is this if I did 2 sets of 10X100?

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tri-ac posted 1 year ago.

Pete L.;64140 wrote:
I feel sort of ignorant here, when you say 10X100 that means 10 sets of 100m, right? So when would I take the 20s rest, and when would I take the 1 minute rest? Is this if I did 2 sets of 10X100?

"10x" = ten times
100 = 100 yds or meters
with 20 secs between each 100

once the 10 repeats are done, rest for 1 min before starting your next workout set (whatever that may be)

the 20 secs is just an example, you may find you need more or less, but the main idea is to be methodical about the workout so that you can challenge yourself incrementally and measurably

Ironmom's picture
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Ironmom posted 1 year ago.

Pete L.;64139 wrote:

Its not the same pool. I'm in a pool at Gold's gym now, but I'm not 100% sure its a 25 yard pool. I am gliding quite a bit, though, so that could be the cause. I do feel surges forward as I start into my stroke.

I'd check out the pool length for sure. Many gyms tend to have 20 yard pools. On the other hand, if you're feeling a surge, it could be that you're getting glide but holding it too long and bleeding your speed off, so that might be why you're taking few strokes but not getting an increase in speed.

Pete L.;64139 wrote:
I'll see if I can get another video together. I really want to get a coach though. How much should I expect to pay for decent coaching, and how often should I expect to meet with a coach?

I don't know what swim coaches go for nationwide or in other areas, but my coaching is $15 per half-hour session. People meet with me for different frequencies depending on their needs. Typically, it's once a week, and I encourage them to get in the pool at least 2x more a week and to work on the drills that we go through. Typically in a half-hour coaching session, I will take them through two things I want them to work on and give them a drill or drills for each thing. I start with the "big ticket items" of things that will make the most improvement for them in the shortest amount of time. As they progress, we move to more finicky details in their stroke.

I hope you can find someone locally who will work for you. If you go to a race, I would ask other triathletes about swim coaching. Not all swim coaches are created equal, so make sure you find someone who comes well-recommended if you can. And if you can't find anyone and are ever in Oregon, I do actually have people drop in from other states and even other countries for coaching, usually business travelers who are here on a semi-regular basis though :)

Pete L.;64139 wrote:
I really appreciate everyone's help. I've never been a good swimmer, and almost didn't graduate from the boy scouts because of it. So now its really important to me to become a good swimmer. It may be time to get an in person coach.

I think that's a great idea. The wonderful thing about swimming is that you can improve so quickly because technique is very important and any improvement in technique usually pays off in results. I hope you can find someone good to help you out!

Blue Skies, -Robin-
http://ironmom.blogspot.com/

Pete L.'s picture
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Pete L. posted 1 year ago.

Ironmom;64205 wrote:
...but my coaching is $15 per half-hour session...

Great! You're hired! The gas from SLC to Eugene is going to kill me though.

I tried the intervals, and speeding up my stroke. Not having really done a lot of short intervals like 100s, I don't know how much improvement this is, but I was able to do like 1:30 for my first couple, then it dropped to about 1:40, and by the end was like 1:47 with one or two that were in the 1:50s. This is a with a minute rest, though, between sets.

I checked with my gym, and they claim its 25m, so hopefully they're telling the truth.

Do I want kind of a rolling feeling, or a pull->glide->pull->glide type of thing? I usually have the pull->glide thing happening, but upping my stroke count makes it feel a little more motorish.

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fittycent posted 1 year ago.

Pete L.;64334 wrote:
I tried the intervals, and speeding up my stroke. Not having really done a lot of short intervals like 100s, I don't know how much improvement this is, but I was able to do like 1:30 for my first couple, then it dropped to about 1:40, and by the end was like 1:47 with one or two that were in the 1:50s. This is a with a minute rest, though, between sets.

Something that might work for you is to use a running clock (whether it's your watch or a big clock you can see from the water) and begin each interval "at the top" meaning at "00." Swim your hundreds and try to keep them at about the same speed. I'd suggest trying to hit 1:45 or so, since 1:30 seems too fast. That way, when you finish each set and look up at the clock it should say "XX:45" and you'll rest for 15 seconds and then start your next 100 "at the top" and repeat. This type of workout has helped me to be more "methodical."

Pete L.;64334 wrote:

I checked with my gym, and they claim its 25m, so hopefully they're telling the truth.

Dude, people that work at gyms have no idea what they're talking about. I wouldn't trust them on that for anything.

Pete L.'s picture
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Pete L. posted 1 year ago.

Well it was an email from the manager of the gym. He seemed pretty sure. I guess I could bring a measuring tape to make sure.

I'll start doing top of the minute style intervals. I like that idea.

fittycent's picture
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fittycent posted 1 year ago.

Pete L.;64351 wrote:
Well it was an email from the manager of the gym. He seemed pretty sure. I guess I could bring a measuring tape to make sure.

Well, I guess an email from the manager is more credible than what the front desk greeter/card swiper might tell you...anyway, if I ever build a lap pool, its length will be ENGRAVED in bold numbers in plain sight!

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tri-ac posted 1 year ago.

Pete L.;64334 wrote:
I checked with my gym, and they claim its 25m, so hopefully they're telling the truth.

If they have the typical 2x4 acoustical grid ceiling, just do backstroke for a while, count the tiles, and do the math. Most acoustic tile ceilings are 24"x48". Or walk it off and measure your stride to compare.

You'll be close enough to tell if it's close to 25yds or not...

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Pete L. posted 1 year ago.

Today I did the "top of the minute" style repeats, and had pretty good results. My first 2 were way too fast for me, at 1:20 and 1:30 (I'd love to be doing 1:20 consistently), and after that stablized between 1:45 and 1:55 depending on effort. I'm going to try and come in at 1:45 every time if I can. I like having something to measure how I'm doing lap to lap.