Posts Member

Well, we can only hope that the B sample comes back negative. If not, I really don't know what to think at this point. :confused:

Posts Member

I agree, I hope the B sample comeback negative.

Posts Member

HAHAH, As I posted days ago, I knew it would only be DAYS before the FRENCH would spoil the innocence of landis !! The FRENCH can't stand that fact that another american won. They are sore losers who will stop at nothing to discount the win. Remember FRANCE is the country that built up saddam's nuke program back in the 80's. The french are the ones buying oil from Iran. I don't mean this to be a political post but the FRENCH will stop at nothing to call every American a cheat. Even if this is cleared up they did what they wanted to do. Cast doubt and suspision. :(

Posts Member

I don't particularly care for the French either, but what does this have to do with the French other than the fact that the race was in France? It isn't like L'Equipe (the French newspaper I believe) did some investigation, this is purely the function of a drug test...could have happened in Germany.

As for abnormally high levels of testosterone, I have the same questions as well. Can there be naturally occuring variations that would exceed the parameters that are set by the people who test? Apparently Lance has abnormally large lungs for a human, well, could it be possible that Floyd excreets abnormally large volumes of Testosterone on occassion? Dunno, but just a thought.

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Zidane and Chirac ... Need I say more ?

Posts Member

I'm hoping one of two things:
1. Testing the B sample will show the first results were in error.

2. Like PJT suggested, maybe the *amazing* performance compared to Stage 16 resulted in a surge of testosterone. I know we talk about surges of adrenalin, endorphins, etc... And some studies claim that women's hot flashes are the result of the body sensing a drop in estrogen. So, hopefully the same sorts of ebbs and flows can be the case with testosterone.

I mean, seriously, how stupid would the guy have been to have totally bonked in Stage 16 and say "gee, I'll just juice up before Stage 17 and hopefully no one will notice"? That more than anything is what leads me to believe it's an aberration.

Posts Member

If you want to hate someone in France..Hate the guys who oversee cycling and sports and the media in France. Hey...it sells newspapers and improves ratings...sort of like here ("Fox news! Helping to keep you safe!")
Please...lets keep politics out of this...Yes the French helped Iraq with it's nuke program. WE gave Iraq weapons and money and helped them with their WMD program when they were fighting Iran for ten years. We also supplied weapons to the Taliban when they were fighting the USSR.
Zidane? Chirac? What about Lafayette? If it wern't for the French we'd have MPs in Parliament and sing "God save the Queen" before cricket matches.
If he's guilty,so much for the new hero, And anyone who said GO FLOYD has egg on their face. Me included.
I said this after the PRE tour dope thing. That line from "Breaking Away" Dave the hero gets "pumped" by the Italians during the bike race. He cries to his Father later and says something like.."Everyone cheats. I just didn't know it."

Posts Member

Ahh... Thanks.

And Anton, if Landis is guilty, I don't think you have egg on your face, or me for that matter. All we did was presume a guy who had not been caught cheating was innocent. Even though some people were suspicious of his huge win on stage 17, they didn't have evidence of cheating either. But people do have magnificent achievements in sports from time to time without breaking the rules. There is no shame in giving someone like that the benefit of the doubt.

Posts Member

i will just point to last year after the tour less than 24 hours after Lance was standing on the podium. i was not a big fan of Landis either until stage 17.

Posts Member

It is just sad to see this. Every way you see it. False allegations, made up histories, his mother’s comments, Test A, whatever the results of results B.
Somebody mention is to soon to speak, I think the damage is done and gray is the color of the tour of France, not yellow.
As for generalizing French like any other citizen is inappropriate in any multicultural and international forum.

Posts Member

There's plenty of politics in cycling. So why can't politics be brought up here? The french, and europeans overall generalize us just as much as we do them, it's a fact of life.
I think the underlying issue is that there are always going to be sore people out there who are looking to knock a winner down. And like Panchotri said, the damage here, regardless of the B sample, is done.

Posts Member

Apples and oranges. Politics in cycling or in the sports media and geopolitical politics aren't exactly the same thing. I, for one, generally like the fact that Trifuel forums do not turn into a U.S. vs. Europe, Democrat vs. Republican or any other political flame-war on a regular basis. I have no problems, however, with discussing the politics internal to our sport -- or cycling for that matter. Where the two things overlap (e.g., WADA has it in for Americans, etc.) we should also discuss. That may be what's happening here, or it may not. In either event flame-free is the better way to go.

I agree. But that does not make it right for any of us to do so.

Maybe--or maybe the tests here are accurate. We just don't know yet. I'll agree that the sporting press has been overly gleeful about rushing these allegations into print in the past.

Some damage, yes, but it could get better or worse for Landis depending on what happens next.

Posts Member

Still fruit though.

It is nice that this isn't US vs Euope and all, but in the tour nationality is displayed, just as in the olympics, world championships, etc. I mean Floyd was riding around with American flag after the race just as Lance did in the previous years. Now, I do understand however that it wasn't some private French agency investigating floyd, don't get me wrong. But you have to agree that there are unhappy people across Europe that another American has won the tour. And likewise, people that would like to see his miraculous stage 17 ride shot down.

I never said it was right, I just said it happens.

I have to say I'm in complete agreement.

True, but it takes years to build a reputation, and only seconds to crush it. And once there's doubt, it's hard to never be suspicious again. I mean, even if the B sample comes back negative and they say he's clean, for the rest of his career, even if he wins 6 more tours and ties lance, someone, somewhere, will always bring up that he tested positive once.

Posts Member

jdav,

I don't think we disagree much on these issues. Of course I agree that there are likely people in Europe nations who would rather have seen one of their countrymen win. That's nationalism--albeit a fairly harmless variety. I guess my one point is that there is very little evidence right now to suggest that there is any sort of smear campaign going on against Landis. His first test came out positive, which, granted, should have been kept confidential--but information of that magnitude is inevitably going to get out.

Is his reputation crushed? Assuming that he is cleared (and that's a big assumption), only people who won't bother to analyze the final outcome will consider him a cheater, and they will do so from ignorance (similar in my mind to the folks in Hawaii booing Rutger B. last year) or spite. But, for that matter, there are plenty of people who believed he and most other Tour cyclists doped before this test result.

Posts Member

PJT,
I guess I'm just irritated that I went ahead and impulse bought a "Tour de Floyd" tee-shirt. I guess if he's proven guilty I'll have to cross off Floyd in black magic marker and write Pereiro.

Posts Member

I agree.

I have big problems with the questionable tests that are performed, the questionable people involved in the testing, the questionable people involved in the bureaucratic agency, and the questionable early release of "information."

Given the fact that a single dose of testosterone could have no effect whatsoever on his performance --- and could certainly be detected in testing, Floyd would have to have been insane to have doped prior to Stage 17. I don't rule out bad science, bad scientists, sabotage or tampering. In the old days, poisoning was a popular method of slowing down riders --- things are more sophisticated now. Unless Floyd were to admit guilt, I'm giving him the benefit of the presumption og innocence until clear and convincing evidence is produced that would overcome that presumption.

Posts Member

Someone posted this on another board I frequent:

Oh, and I like French fries! I mean....Freedom fries!

Posts Member

Gee, what a surprise. A leak from the governing body.
There was speculation last week that the test for synthetic testoterone was positive.

If confirmed, I still don't rule out sabotage or tampering. My own speculation --- based upon nothing more than my uncanny instinct --- is sabotage before Stage 16. It could explain both Floyd's poor performance in that stage as well as the the positive test results. The right "Mickey" would do the trick. Of course, proving it may well be impossible, in which case Floyd probably has no viable defense.

Posts Member

I agree tribro. Ya know what. I feel for him. He is not as stupid as Ben Johnson was here In Canada, and I feel he is innocent. Ya can't just do that. Why would he? It would mean certain incrimination! I hate to say it, but I feel it might be some kinda sabotage. 'Course, if he actually DID, well then......

Posts Member

Just an interesting bit of info... I heard that all winners are tested... which could mean that it wasn't something he did differently for stage 17, but more just that it was when he was tested. So it wasn't necessarily an issue of "what did he do after a bad stage" or "who handed him what to cause a bad stage" etc. But was just not seen til after the good stage.

Personally, two things about procycling are really making me loose interest:
1. all the focus on doping and doping scandals. I feel like the general public knows only a few cyclists names, and that's the ones that have had big doping stories around them (and Lance).
2. guilty until proven innocent. There is one question or word about a cyclist, and suddenly the story is everywhere. Like has been said here, we shouldn't hear about preliminary results. There is no need. It helps nothing.

Posts Member

Sorry but for me the doping issue is very clear: a positive is a positive.

Posts Member

so sad and frustrating. way to much corruption in sports...
Landis
Gatlin: http://news.google.com/news?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=gatlin&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
Zack: http://news.google.com/news?client=safari&rls=en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=wn&q=jurgen+zack

Posts Member

Interestimg you should bring that up BBB...
Let me tell you a story...
I had completed an HIM several years ago and felt good about my time and how I handled it. I stayed for awards and had a chance to talk to a guy who won a masters AG award. (I'm being obscure for obvious reasons.)
He was all smiles and quite happy..as we walked back to our cars he leaned over and said.."couldn't have done it with out some 'T' ." I looked at him and must have had a "What?" look on my face. "Testostrone" he said..."I was feeling sluggish and a Dr. Friend of mine put me on Testostrone and my times really came down!"
It's common for older men to be put on Testostrone as they start to produce less and become deficient. It just makes me wonder how many men,say in 40-44 and up have won AG's and are never been tested...I bet some of them are running around with Floyd levels.

Posts Member

what about otc dhea ?

Posts Member

I guess it must be comforting to have blind faith in this so-called scientific testing.

You might be disheartened to learn that during the course of history, about 90% of contemporary scientific though has been subsequently proven to be erroneous.

As pointed out in one of the previously cited articles,
“The carbon isotope was only mildly elevated... “We know, from a statistical standpoint, that the first result could have been a false positive.�
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/sp...rssnyt&emc=rss

The discussion in that article makes it clear that the carbon isotope test is but another test based upon comparative levels of substances that are always in the human body. The comparative levels that constitute a "positive" are set by the bureaucrats, not the scientists. Not that I have much faith in either group.