I love France!!
Too bad the French live there.

Noel.

With at least four Americans in contention (Floyd Landis, George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer and Tom Danielson), I can only imagine how horrified the anti-U.S. crowd in France might be at at the prospect of yet another Yankee wearing the yellow jersey.

Therefore, its no surprise to see the continuing "yellow journalism."

I could say alot about the French...Lets leave it at that.
However, I'm a US citizen and people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[QUOTE=Anton]I could say alot about the French...Lets leave it at that.
However, I'm a US citizen and people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't throw frisbees or kick soccer balls around either!!
You have to pay for the window and get grounded too!!:D

As far as the Lance issue goes I think it might die down when this years TdF is over. It is not like it will affect Lances Cycling career now that he is retired.

[QUOTE=beads1985]As far as the Lance issue goes I think it might die down when this years TdF is over. It is not like it will affect Lances Cycling career now that he is retired.[/QUOTE]
They are trying to tarnish the legacy. Having an American win 7, and talked about as one of the greats is too much for them, so the attacks will go on. :(

[QUOTE=RV]They are trying to tarnish the legacy. Having an American win 7, and talked about as one of the greats is too much for them, so the attacks will go on. :([/QUOTE]
They may still attack but each one is losing it potency, and making the accuser look worse and worse.
"The Boy who cried 'Wolf'!" comes to mind.:D

[QUOTE=beads1985]They may still attack but each one is losing it potency, and making the accuser look worse and worse.
"The Boy who cried 'Wolf'!" comes to mind.:D[/QUOTE]
For people that follow the sport, that is true - but for the general public probably not. Many people just hear the allegations and assume they are true. They are used to hearing about athletes using drugs. I know that I have run into many of these people.:(

[QUOTE=RV]For people that follow the sport, that is true - but for the general public probably not. Many people just hear the allegations and assume they are true. They are used to hearing about athletes using drugs. I know that I have run into many of these people.:([/QUOTE]
I am a big proponent of innocent until proven guilty.
Maybe I was being optimistic, believing people would think the truth is important. Unfortunately you are right about many people seeing the sensationalistic journalism, and it becomes fact to them.
Especially when fans of many different sports are seeing their heroes being accused of drug use, denying the fact, and then it being proven they were using.
It can shake the foundations of your faith.
Hopefully the truth comes out and he is vindicated.

what a joke. l'equipe and its staff are a real bunch of sore losers.

Were you guys this quick to defend Tyler Hamilton? Pantani? Millar?
Let me play devils advocate here for a minute: What if it is true?
I'm with beads (well not WITH him,if you know what I mean) but innocent until proven guilty.I think though, givin time, the truth will come out and it may or may not be to your liking.

[QUOTE=Anton]Were you guys this quick to defend Tyler Hamilton? Pantani? Millar?
Let me play devils advocate here for a minute: What if it is true?
I'm with beads (well not WITH him,if you know what I mean) but innocent until proven guilty.I think though, givin time, the truth will come out and it may or may not be to your liking.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...
We are just friends, and so we ran togehter for a few hours.
There were lots of people around, nothing happened
Hopefully l'equipe doesn't get a hold of this:eek:

[QUOTE=Anton]... What if it is true?... but innocent until proven guilty. I think though, givin time, the truth will come out and it may or may not be to your liking.[/QUOTE]

[B]Sounds like you believe in the concept of Innocent until proven guilty, but where there's smoke there's fire. You can't have it both ways.[/B]

[QUOTE=thehitman][B]Sounds like you believe in the concept of Innocent until proven guilty, but where there's smoke there's fire. You can't have it both ways.[/B][/QUOTE]
Isn't this the whole issue: He is innocent unless proven guilty. He isn't guilty simply because he has been accused over and over again. Let there be some hard evidence and not hearsay. However, if he is ever proven to have used these types of performance enhancers, then I'll be greatly disappointed, but I will be right there wanting him to take the punishments for doing so.
Many people assume that there must be something to the allegations else they wouldn't have been made - so therefore they assume them to be true. So far, that just isn't the case. Being that he was one of the most tested athletes for banned substances, if he was doping there would have been evidence.

Well, I guess that being a non-American, this will not get me a lot of friends in trifuel, but coming from a country where road cycling is one of the most popular sports and cycling news are in the papers everyday and followed by millions of people I feel compelled to give you a non American view of the issue.
(and not I am not French, though unlike probably most of you...I have lived in France and speak the language, which might give me a different perspective on them)

Would you be guilty if you stole a bike from transition area and nobody saw you doing it ?

Well, I guess you would be innocent to the eyes of the law, but that does not change the fact that you stole a bike that you will probably riding in the future, so I guess from a moral point of view your innocence sounds a bit dodgy.

So... in the case of Lance Amstrong, there is no doubt he had EPO. The samples containing traces of it are still conserved frozen in the lab.

The main point is (whitout going into the obscure conclicts of interest between the UCI and Tour de France organizers) thet tere is no law that allows to punish doping for substances that could not be tested at the time of the event (there was no test for EPO in 1999), therefore nobody will dispossess Lance of his seven tours.

Was he the only one racer on EPO at that time? For sure he was not, it is just that he had the misfortune? of having a tremendous career in the sport (with or without exogenous help) and he is in the eye of the hurricane right now.

For those of you less acquainted with this subject...just do a search on Michelle Ferrari and check his list of clients from all sport backgrounds. He was trialled for promoting doping practices, and I guess he was not doing that on his Teddy bears...

Now it is up to you to consider if he is innocent or not, I guess it depends on the meaning of innocent to you.

The French sporting authorities, and to a big extension, most of the European ones have shown strong positions against doping (read news about tour de france today), so I think it does not do a big favour to the American sporting community to reduce this issue to "oh, it´s the world against the Americans again" , specially in a country with his own obscure stories about doping regulations...

To the other displays of ignorance displayed by some of the forum members...I could say a lot...but let´s leave at that (just quoting someone´s post)

So now you all...enough reading and back to training!!!

Mine Familie kommt aus Osterreich. Ich bin zu Europa viele Male gewessen. Ich haba Fahrrad gesehen,Europa im Abschluss lange vorter Lance oben zu laufen.
Ich liebe Europe,das franzosische enthaltene.
(for the non-polyglots..My family comes from Austria. I've been to Europe many times. I've seen bike racing up close in Europe,long before Lance came along. I love Europe,the French included.)
However,as an American I still believe in the rule of law and innocent till proven guilty, even though my government doesn't sometimes act that way. I also believe in Karma and what goes around comes around.
You can't scream about Lance being put under the microscope and then "boo" Barry Bonds. Do I think Lance is guilty? Yes. Why? For no other reason, than to quote from MacBeth, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much"

[QUOTE=tribkk] ...So... in the case of Lance Amstrong, there is no doubt he had EPO. The samples containing traces of it are still conserved frozen in the lab....
Now it is up to you to consider if he is innocent or not, I guess it depends on the meaning of innocent to you.
To the other displays of ignorance displayed by some of the forum members...I could say a lot...but let´s leave at that (just quoting someone´s post)....[/QUOTE]
[B]I'm not sure what ignorance you think has been displayed; but you yourself have displayed a clear ignorance of the meaning of innocent until proven guilty.

Your post begins with an analogy involving a stolen bicycle where guilt is an assumed fact, and proceeds on the assumption that Lance is likewise guilty - even if it can't be proven.

Apparently, to your way of thinking, we don't need evidence, or due process of law. We don't need sworn tesimony. We don't need to comply with established standards for testing of scientific evidence. The right to confront and cross examine your accusers, and to present evidence or your own behalf in a fair and impartial tribunal --- are they mere technicalities in your world?

I don't know whether Lance or scores of other TdF riders took EPO or other banned substances. And neither do you. I do know that he was repeatedly tested, in season and out, and passed every test ever administered. Until and unless it is established in a proper legal forum that Lance violated the rules, he is innocent. But maybe that's just a technicality to you.[/B]

If you were in the national spotlight and your accomplishments were constantly being linked to drugs - that have not been proven - you're saying that you would not protest it?
It is his personal and professional reputation, and credibility at stake, let alone how it affects his family, kids etc. To not defend himself strongly would be wrong.

The stealing anology is silly. Stealing is stealing whether witnessed or not. Accusing someone falsely is wrong.
If there was any hard evidence of Lance taking performance enhancing drugs it would be known. All that ever comes out are allegations, and unreliable third-party conjecture.

Things always heat up right before the TdF. .
Take a look at the Velonews website for the latest: [url]www.velonews.com[/url].
Now they want to ban Astaná-Würth from the TdF. Astaná-Würth is taking its case to the Sports Arbitration Court because the TdF Committee wants to ban them from racing this year’s Tour even though Spanish courts still haven't released any documents or filed any indictments. This thing between Armstrong and LeMond has cropped up again, and CAS has declared that Hamilton can keep his gold medal and Ullrich’s name is getting drug through the mud…..This is better than any TV show! I just hope Vino gets to race (and Jan).
- T

I'm not sure what ignorance you think has been displayed; but you yourself have displayed a clear ignorance of the meaning of innocent until proven guilty.

Your post begins with an analogy involving a stolen bicycle where guilt is an assumed fact, and proceeds on the assumption that Lance is likewise guilty - even if it can't be proven.

Apparently, to your way of thinking, we don't need evidence, or due process of law. We don't need sworn tesimony. We don't need to comply with established standards for testing of scientific evidence. The right to confront and cross examine your accusers, and to present evidence or your own behalf in a fair and impartial tribunal --- are they mere technicalities in your world?

I don't know whether Lance or scores of other TdF riders took EPO or other banned substances. And neither do you.

[COLOR=Red]You can believe me or not...but I do. I worked with EPO for six years, from 97 to 03, in one of the two companies that were developing a recombinant (non human derived) EPO. Our product was found in the 98 tour scandal among other doping substances. We then wrote a press release declaring that we had nothing to do with the selling of a product that by then was not even FDA approved, plus some of my staffwere questioned during the trial that followed.[/COLOR]

I do know that he was repeatedly tested, in season and out, and passed every test ever administered.

[COLOR=Red]Just a small note to this. He is only being accused of using EPO in the 99 tour, where a test for EPO was not available.[/COLOR]

Until and unless it is established in a proper legal forum that Lance violated the rules, he is innocent. But maybe that's just a technicality to you.

[COLOR=Red]So I guess that if I steal the bike, but nobody can stablish in a proper legal forum that I did...makes me innocent, right??? Well, let me tell you I got my bike stolen once, I never got the b*****d that did it, but I can tell you he is not innocent even if he is probably riding free (on my bike) today...[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=tribkk]
[COLOR=Red]So I guess that if I steal the bike, but nobody can stablish in a proper legal forum that I did...makes me innocent, right??? [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
So does that mean Lance stole your bike too?

So Lance stole [I]your[/I] EPO? Is that Why you're mad? He stole it and shared it with Basso and Ullrich. Oh, wait Ullrich didnt dope.

[QUOTE=Triguy98]So Lance stole [I]your[/I] EPO? Is that Why you're mad? He stole it and shared it with Basso and Ullrich. Oh, wait Ullrich didnt dope.[/QUOTE]Geez...all they have are some code names[I]...."The newspaper claims the laboratory took less care to disguise names a few years ago, with a document from June 26, 2004 linking a client named "Jan" to three blood-boosting pouches.
The name "Jan" also appears on receipts for doping products worth more than 1900 euros ($2400), it added"[/I]

I am thinking that it could be Jan from the Brady bunch...trying to get back at Marcia!:D
- T

IT WOULD BE NEWS WORTHY if it was TRUE...

unfortunately Armstrong could outride every competittor in the TdF for 10 straight years and never outride the suspicion..

It's eaiser for them to believe that someone had to cheat to reach such a paramount accomplishment than it is for them to believe that he just had the correct mix of genetics, determination, support, and timing...

I don't believe Lance will ever evade doping allegations...
but I do believe he'll NEVER test Positive...

[QUOTE=tribkk]
[COLOR=Red]So I guess that if I steal the bike, but nobody can stablish in a proper legal forum that I did...makes me innocent, right???[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

In the eyes of the law... Yes.

time to start planning your perfect crime...

[url]http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/armstrongstatemen...

Cyclingnews.com does the right thing. And oh, boy do the people making the accusations look dirty.

[QUOTE=Triguy98][url]http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/armstrongstatemen...

Cyclingnews.com does the right thing. And oh, boy do the people making the accusations look dirty.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the post. Very interesting read. Some pretty vindictive people out there.

Amazing.

[I][B]Fraud and falsehood only dread examination. Truth invites it.[/B][/I]
Samuel Johnson

[url]http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/armstrongstatemen...