George - I've found that my stroke count is in the upper 30's. What can I do to get it down into the mid 20's?
Mind you, I'm a novice swimmer. I've been swimming for a while now, but learned from lifeguards at the YMCA as a teenager and then took lessons last year to fix my lack of skill and knowledge. Skill is much better, knowledge is present but not very deep.
I assume it comes from arm strength in how you're able to move faster through the water and take less strokes. Is this a correct assumption? Or partially correct?
Geochuck - 12 strokes - Wow!
I've been getting my stroke count down - but I have been tracking it more by what is listed in my drills as Swim Golf.
Basically count strokes and time for 50 yds. i.e. 36 strokes + 45 seconds = 81
Then try to improve on it.
Have you tried this?
[url]http://www.sftriclub.org/newsletter/newbie/swim/training.shtml[/url] golf- although this is not really a drill per se, the benefits you can get by playing this game are amazing; to begin, swim one lap as you normally do, and count the number of strokes you take (each arm pull counts as one); now, swim another lap, and this time count the number of pulls AND record your time; your golf score is the sum of your pull count and your time in seconds- for example, in a 50 yard pool, you might do 46 pulls and cover the 50 yards in 58 seconds, for a score of 46+58=104; now, try to lower your score by either (1) swimming "longer" and lowering your stroke count, or (2) swimming faster, which may increase your stroke count; by experimenting with your golf game, you will discover a swim style that works best for you, and that ideally leads to a lower stroke count for a given effort and time; note that lower golf scores often mean increased effort, so your goal should be to lower your score without having to swim appreciably harder, hopefully by lowering the number of pulls you require to cover a lap.
This is a good explanation of how to lower your stroke count. You have to extend, kick, glide, streamline and reach. The last time 5 years ago I golfed my score was 26 + 38 = 64 for 50m. I still stroke count for 25m with no time 10 to 13 strokes not for time, but I am really reaching and gliding.
Try to lower the stroke count for the 25 by gliding longer If you can do20 per length try and do say 16 even if you feel you are not swimming. Eventially you will be able to do 16 at speed. Does it really matter that you take 20 strokes per length. Most experts say it does. The trick is to lower the turnover rate and by swimming correctly your times improve.
So you suggest trying to limit the number strokes as a way to improve your form, as opposed to working trying to have better form, which would reduce the number or stroke?
Or the third option, do you try to work on your form AND reduce the number of strokes you take?
To get there in ten strokes requires great form. I believe a lot of this happens naturally
without even considering swimming with great form, it just happens. My brother a great coach believed if you swim long swims the stroke improves on its own if you think about the three important items of swimming, extend, the catch and the finish.
also, as a pro swimmer, youre under the water "dolphin kicking" much further than your average swimmer.. starting your stroke counting down the pool a few more yards, yeah?
We did stroke count races in my swim class this autum. Instead of who is the fastest, it is who uses the least amount of strokes. Im at 14 for 25m. Just streach and extend and rotate Toni. Work with a pull boy if you sink down.
[QUOTE=sljv]also, as a pro swimmer, youre under the water "dolphin kicking" much further than your average swimmer.. starting your stroke counting down the pool a few more yards, yeah?[/QUOTE] No, a push without the benifit of the 15m underwater and streamline.
I think last time I checked I swim at about 19-21 strokes per 25m, but I have never seen how few I could do. I am sure going a little slower I could knock a couple off that.
I've gotten mine down to around 18. Still working on that - trying to increase the DPS. The rotation is the key for propulsion. And I guess elongation to streamline the body. I will be forever trying to be a better swimmer. Maybe someday actually be good at it :rolleyes:
15 strokes per 25 yards. To reduce stroke count you need to focus on reducing drag.
Try the total immersion technique stuff. Go to [url]www.totalimmersion.net[/url]
Right now I vary between 16-18 strokes. On really bad days I can actually get up to 20, I usually leave the pool frustrated. My golf score is usually about 45 sec so add that too 32-36 strokes I'm usually 77-82. I guess, having read the other posts, I'm doing pretty good. I need to continue to work on my reach and the power phase of my stroke.
I just finished a swim clinic which was really good for me to see that I am doing pretty good but can tweak my stroke in a few different areas. I recommend attending a clinic or class just to have someone else look at your stroke from the deck. It really is helpful. Master swim, here I come!!!
I have been doing the golf thing and all and that is going okay - but do you continue counting strokes periodically when doing a long straight endurance set? If so, would the #'s change?
After your stroke completion, do you give yourself some time to "coast" forward a little before your next stroke or do you immediately go from one stroke to another with no pause whatsoever?
Total Immersion talks about gliding, but there's been some criticism of that concept.
I did it when I first started using TI methods a couple of years ago, and it was beneficial in terms of improving my technique. I'm still not very fast, and it seems that the "gliding" sacrifices speed -- so no more gliding for me.
[QUOTE=thehitman]Total Immersion talks about gliding, but there's been some criticism of that concept.
I did it when I first started using TI methods a couple of years ago, and it was beneficial in terms of improving my technique. I'm still not very fast, and it seems that the "gliding" sacrifices speed -- so no more gliding for me.
thehitman[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on what kind of race your doing. You do sprints hitman, so power is okay, but when you do an Olympic distance, you will need to have good form and work without losing too much power. Use your arms more than legs. Saving their strength for later. I am still slow, but my form is really much much cleaner and smother. With consistent training the time will improve but not without the training.
I have talked to others who have "tried" total immersion only to give up on it because they claim it didn't make them faster. I have gotten faster.
I have been swimming for fitness for years and years - about 3 or 4 times a week. Every once in awhile I do a 1500 (yards) and time myself to see how I am progessing. One year ago my time had gotten down to 29:42. That is swimming as fast as I could go. At the end of the 1500 I was spent. I gave it all I had.
In March of this year I found out about TI. I bought Triathlon Swimming Made easy book and the Freestyle Made Easy DVD. I totally stopped swimming and did all the TI drills. This took a few months. I was disciplined about the drills and did not swim or try to condition myself - even when I had a triathlon coming up. I figured this was better in the long term. Starting in June I did a few 1500s and timed myself. I had dropped down to about 28 minutes. I was pretty disappointed I wasn't faster. My stroke count had dropped from about 22 down to 15 -16. I felt like my stroke was better. But I wasn't a lot faster - some but not a lot.
In July I took a lesson from a TI certified coach. That was beneficial.
In August I stopped focusing on drills and started swimming more. I do use fistgloves and do swimming drills for the first 700 of my workout. I then do the exercises recommended in the TI Book. These exercises consist of learning your gears. For example, I'll do a 5X25 at 14-15-16-17-18 strokes and then repeat and do 18-17-16-15-14. There are all sorts of these exercises listed in the TI book. I also do the swimming golf thing also. These exercises are quite a workout. I am pretty tired afterward.
As to speed: Two weeks ago my time for a 1500 was 23:31. That was in the middle of a workout. I had done 700 with fistgloves warming up and then afterwards I did 5x100 on 2:00 then a 300 warmdown. So, in a year I have dropped over 6 minutes off my 1500 time and that new lower time is at a pace that doesn't kill me - its my triathlon pace - at that pace I will exit the water feeling good. My 50 and 100 times have dropped quite a bit. When I would swim 5X100 on 2:00 my 100 time was about 1:45 with 15 sec rest. Now a 5x100 on 2:00 my 100 time is 1:25 with :35 rest. Big difference. I expect to continue to get faster. My goal is to swim 1500 yards at 20 minutes or less by tri season. We'll see . . .
Will TI make you faster? I guess it depends on where your stroke is now. It made me faster but I gave it time, was patient and complete rewrote my muscle memory. I have followed exactly what the TI book says to do and it has paid dividends.
[QUOTE=Blitz]I think it depends on what kind of race your doing. You do sprints hitman, so power is okay, but when you do an Olympic distance, you will need to have good form and work without losing too much power. Use your arms more than legs. Saving their strength for later. I am still slow, but my form is really much much cleaner and smother. With consistent training the time will improve but not without the training.[/QUOTE]
You're might be right, Blitz,
One of these days, hopefully soon, I'd like to able swim with both good technique and endurance up to 1,500K. I may compete in two or three Olympic distance triathlons next year, including the age group nationals, so it would be nice to get out of the water with a halfway decent time, yet be relatively fresh at the start of the bike. To do that means improving my technique, and more time in the pool this winter and Spring. Now if Santa will only co-operate and get me a nice wetsuit!
Fist gloves or swimming with a closed fist is about the same thing. It is to help you get a better feel for the water, and to use your arm as a paddle. It is supposed to help to keep the elbow high. With fist gloves there isn't any sensation of the water and you don't have to conciously keep her hands in a fist. I will just swim with a closed fist - but not clenched too tight.. After doing that for a bit and then opening up your hand - feel the power.
And no cupping of the hand - best to slightly spread the fingers a bit - makes for a better paddle.
[QUOTE=RV]And no cupping of the hand - best to slightly spread the fingers a bit - makes for a better paddle.[/QUOTE]
Ya, cupping the hand tends to strain the forearm and makes it difficult to create a high elbow catch, which is one of the most important aspects to the stroke. Another thing critical is whan you follow through with the hand do not cross over, tend to make the hand follow the side of the body of the arm. Like if there is a line through the center from the head to back, make sure the hand as it pulls back does not cross over to the opposite side of the belly button of chest.
BBB
Fistgloves are great. You can buy them for $10 from [url]www.totalimmersion.com[/url].
I think it really helps your stroke. It helps you focus on all sorts of things other than powering with your hands. I find it easier to focus on having high elbows, swimming front quadrant, powering from the hips, using my forearm for a paddle, while I have the fistgloves on.
They are made of rubber and hold your hands in fists while you swim.
One of these days, hopefully soon, I'd like to able swim with both good technique and endurance up to 1,500K. I may compete in two or three Olympic distance triathlons next year, including the age group nationals, so it would be nice to get out of the water with a halfway decent time, yet be relatively fresh at the start of the bike. To do that means improving my technique, and more time in the pool this winter and Spring. Now if Santa will only co-operate and get me a nice wetsuit!
thehitman[/QUOTE]
We could make a commitment right here in the trifuel to do an olympic distance by the end of August . Im doing one anyway. I need a wet suit too. Have a little insulated diving top that will do in the worst case. Maybe Jose's family will give us one for our birthdays since we are also nice, and they seem to be very generous
Is it possible that the pool is 25 yards or shorter, when I was in Australia and New Zealand years ago the pools there were mostly yards. 20y , 25y , 50y, and 55 y. Howev er it does say 25m on the clip.
[QUOTE=Blitz]We could make a commitment right here in the trifuel to do an olympic distance by the end of August . Im doing one anyway....
Blitz[/QUOTE]
OK, I'll commit to doing at least 2 Olympic distance events next year. Some have said I ought to be committed!!! ;)
I haven't made out a tentative schedule yet, but the Big Foot Triathlon in late June looks good. Maybe that'll give me a chance to compete against Catwood for two consecutive weeks, so we can see how we're progressing --- she was a few seconds ahead of me at the Rockton Tri last year. :eek: And then the Age Group Nationals in August.
When stroke counting 12 strokes for 25m, 6 strokes full cycle and as low as10 strokes, 5 strokes full cycle.
George - I've found that my stroke count is in the upper 30's. What can I do to get it down into the mid 20's?
Mind you, I'm a novice swimmer. I've been swimming for a while now, but learned from lifeguards at the YMCA as a teenager and then took lessons last year to fix my lack of skill and knowledge. Skill is much better, knowledge is present but not very deep.
I assume it comes from arm strength in how you're able to move faster through the water and take less strokes. Is this a correct assumption? Or partially correct?
Geochuck - 12 strokes - Wow!
I've been getting my stroke count down - but I have been tracking it more by what is listed in my drills as Swim Golf.
Basically count strokes and time for 50 yds. i.e. 36 strokes + 45 seconds = 81
Then try to improve on it.
Have you tried this?
[url]http://www.sftriclub.org/newsletter/newbie/swim/training.shtml[/url] golf- although this is not really a drill per se, the benefits you can get by playing this game are amazing; to begin, swim one lap as you normally do, and count the number of strokes you take (each arm pull counts as one); now, swim another lap, and this time count the number of pulls AND record your time; your golf score is the sum of your pull count and your time in seconds- for example, in a 50 yard pool, you might do 46 pulls and cover the 50 yards in 58 seconds, for a score of 46+58=104; now, try to lower your score by either (1) swimming "longer" and lowering your stroke count, or (2) swimming faster, which may increase your stroke count; by experimenting with your golf game, you will discover a swim style that works best for you, and that ideally leads to a lower stroke count for a given effort and time; note that lower golf scores often mean increased effort, so your goal should be to lower your score without having to swim appreciably harder, hopefully by lowering the number of pulls you require to cover a lap.
This is a good explanation of how to lower your stroke count. You have to extend, kick, glide, streamline and reach. The last time 5 years ago I golfed my score was 26 + 38 = 64 for 50m. I still stroke count for 25m with no time 10 to 13 strokes not for time, but I am really reaching and gliding.
I've done the golf game, and noticed that when I go faster it doesn't change the number of strokes I'm taking. Does this mean anything?
Try to lower the stroke count for the 25 by gliding longer If you can do20 per length try and do say 16 even if you feel you are not swimming. Eventially you will be able to do 16 at speed. Does it really matter that you take 20 strokes per length. Most experts say it does. The trick is to lower the turnover rate and by swimming correctly your times improve.
Chicken or the egg (or maybe both)?
So you suggest trying to limit the number strokes as a way to improve your form, as opposed to working trying to have better form, which would reduce the number or stroke?
Or the third option, do you try to work on your form AND reduce the number of strokes you take?
Thanks for the help
To get there in ten strokes requires great form. I believe a lot of this happens naturally
without even considering swimming with great form, it just happens. My brother a great coach believed if you swim long swims the stroke improves on its own if you think about the three important items of swimming, extend, the catch and the finish.
also, as a pro swimmer, youre under the water "dolphin kicking" much further than your average swimmer.. starting your stroke counting down the pool a few more yards, yeah?
We did stroke count races in my swim class this autum. Instead of who is the fastest, it is who uses the least amount of strokes. Im at 14 for 25m. Just streach and extend and rotate Toni. Work with a pull boy if you sink down.
Blitz
Thanks Blitz! Once I kick the rest of this cold, I'll get in the pool and get to work.
Stretch . . . extend . . . rotate . . . repeat. Got it.
[QUOTE=sljv]also, as a pro swimmer, youre under the water "dolphin kicking" much further than your average swimmer.. starting your stroke counting down the pool a few more yards, yeah?[/QUOTE] No, a push without the benifit of the 15m underwater and streamline.
I think last time I checked I swim at about 19-21 strokes per 25m, but I have never seen how few I could do. I am sure going a little slower I could knock a couple off that.
Brian
Clarify please
Just so we are all on the same page.
A "stroke" is each time one arm reaches forward and pulls back? Correct.?
Just checking. :D
Thats what I was counting Beads.
[QUOTE=beads1985]Just so we are all on the same page.
A "stroke" is each time one arm reaches forward and pulls back? Correct.?
Just checking. :D[/QUOTE]
You are correct.
[QUOTE=RV]You are correct.[/QUOTE]
Darn!!
I was hoping it was a left / right thing.
Then I would have been getting across the pool in 10-11 strokes :D
I guess it means I do 25m in about 20-22 strokes.
I am not really kicking though.
Only using the rotation of my body and getting a slow full length leg kick, kinda, sorta :confused:
I've gotten mine down to around 18. Still working on that - trying to increase the DPS. The rotation is the key for propulsion. And I guess elongation to streamline the body. I will be forever trying to be a better swimmer. Maybe someday actually be good at it :rolleyes:
Each stroke - left hand enters, count 1 stroke, right hand enters count no. 2 stroke and so on.
15 strokes per 25 yards. To reduce stroke count you need to focus on reducing drag.
Try the total immersion technique stuff. Go to [url]www.totalimmersion.net[/url]
Right now I vary between 16-18 strokes. On really bad days I can actually get up to 20, I usually leave the pool frustrated. My golf score is usually about 45 sec so add that too 32-36 strokes I'm usually 77-82. I guess, having read the other posts, I'm doing pretty good. I need to continue to work on my reach and the power phase of my stroke.
I just finished a swim clinic which was really good for me to see that I am doing pretty good but can tweak my stroke in a few different areas. I recommend attending a clinic or class just to have someone else look at your stroke from the deck. It really is helpful. Master swim, here I come!!!
I have been doing the golf thing and all and that is going okay - but do you continue counting strokes periodically when doing a long straight endurance set? If so, would the #'s change?
After your stroke completion, do you give yourself some time to "coast" forward a little before your next stroke or do you immediately go from one stroke to another with no pause whatsoever?
Total Immersion talks about gliding, but there's been some criticism of that concept.
I did it when I first started using TI methods a couple of years ago, and it was beneficial in terms of improving my technique. I'm still not very fast, and it seems that the "gliding" sacrifices speed -- so no more gliding for me.
thehitman
[QUOTE=thehitman]Total Immersion talks about gliding, but there's been some criticism of that concept.
I did it when I first started using TI methods a couple of years ago, and it was beneficial in terms of improving my technique. I'm still not very fast, and it seems that the "gliding" sacrifices speed -- so no more gliding for me.
thehitman[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on what kind of race your doing. You do sprints hitman, so power is okay, but when you do an Olympic distance, you will need to have good form and work without losing too much power. Use your arms more than legs. Saving their strength for later. I am still slow, but my form is really much much cleaner and smother. With consistent training the time will improve but not without the training.
I have talked to others who have "tried" total immersion only to give up on it because they claim it didn't make them faster. I have gotten faster.
I have been swimming for fitness for years and years - about 3 or 4 times a week. Every once in awhile I do a 1500 (yards) and time myself to see how I am progessing. One year ago my time had gotten down to 29:42. That is swimming as fast as I could go. At the end of the 1500 I was spent. I gave it all I had.
In March of this year I found out about TI. I bought Triathlon Swimming Made easy book and the Freestyle Made Easy DVD. I totally stopped swimming and did all the TI drills. This took a few months. I was disciplined about the drills and did not swim or try to condition myself - even when I had a triathlon coming up. I figured this was better in the long term. Starting in June I did a few 1500s and timed myself. I had dropped down to about 28 minutes. I was pretty disappointed I wasn't faster. My stroke count had dropped from about 22 down to 15 -16. I felt like my stroke was better. But I wasn't a lot faster - some but not a lot.
In July I took a lesson from a TI certified coach. That was beneficial.
In August I stopped focusing on drills and started swimming more. I do use fistgloves and do swimming drills for the first 700 of my workout. I then do the exercises recommended in the TI Book. These exercises consist of learning your gears. For example, I'll do a 5X25 at 14-15-16-17-18 strokes and then repeat and do 18-17-16-15-14. There are all sorts of these exercises listed in the TI book. I also do the swimming golf thing also. These exercises are quite a workout. I am pretty tired afterward.
As to speed: Two weeks ago my time for a 1500 was 23:31. That was in the middle of a workout. I had done 700 with fistgloves warming up and then afterwards I did 5x100 on 2:00 then a 300 warmdown. So, in a year I have dropped over 6 minutes off my 1500 time and that new lower time is at a pace that doesn't kill me - its my triathlon pace - at that pace I will exit the water feeling good. My 50 and 100 times have dropped quite a bit. When I would swim 5X100 on 2:00 my 100 time was about 1:45 with 15 sec rest. Now a 5x100 on 2:00 my 100 time is 1:25 with :35 rest. Big difference. I expect to continue to get faster. My goal is to swim 1500 yards at 20 minutes or less by tri season. We'll see . . .
Will TI make you faster? I guess it depends on where your stroke is now. It made me faster but I gave it time, was patient and complete rewrote my muscle memory. I have followed exactly what the TI book says to do and it has paid dividends.
what is the purpose of "fist gloves"?
When swimming normally, do you cup your hands with your fingers all touching each other or do you spread out your fingers?
[QUOTE=Blitz]I think it depends on what kind of race your doing. You do sprints hitman, so power is okay, but when you do an Olympic distance, you will need to have good form and work without losing too much power. Use your arms more than legs. Saving their strength for later. I am still slow, but my form is really much much cleaner and smother. With consistent training the time will improve but not without the training.[/QUOTE]
You're might be right, Blitz,
One of these days, hopefully soon, I'd like to able swim with both good technique and endurance up to 1,500K. I may compete in two or three Olympic distance triathlons next year, including the age group nationals, so it would be nice to get out of the water with a halfway decent time, yet be relatively fresh at the start of the bike. To do that means improving my technique, and more time in the pool this winter and Spring. Now if Santa will only co-operate and get me a nice wetsuit!
thehitman
Fist gloves or swimming with a closed fist is about the same thing. It is to help you get a better feel for the water, and to use your arm as a paddle. It is supposed to help to keep the elbow high. With fist gloves there isn't any sensation of the water and you don't have to conciously keep her hands in a fist. I will just swim with a closed fist - but not clenched too tight.. After doing that for a bit and then opening up your hand - feel the power.
And no cupping of the hand - best to slightly spread the fingers a bit - makes for a better paddle.
[QUOTE=RV]And no cupping of the hand - best to slightly spread the fingers a bit - makes for a better paddle.[/QUOTE]
Ya, cupping the hand tends to strain the forearm and makes it difficult to create a high elbow catch, which is one of the most important aspects to the stroke. Another thing critical is whan you follow through with the hand do not cross over, tend to make the hand follow the side of the body of the arm. Like if there is a line through the center from the head to back, make sure the hand as it pulls back does not cross over to the opposite side of the belly button of chest.
BBB
Fistgloves are great. You can buy them for $10 from [url]www.totalimmersion.com[/url].
I think it really helps your stroke. It helps you focus on all sorts of things other than powering with your hands. I find it easier to focus on having high elbows, swimming front quadrant, powering from the hips, using my forearm for a paddle, while I have the fistgloves on.
They are made of rubber and hold your hands in fists while you swim.
Two tennis balls better than fist gloves,if not better cheaper.
[QUOTE=thehitman]You're might be right, Blitz,
One of these days, hopefully soon, I'd like to able swim with both good technique and endurance up to 1,500K. I may compete in two or three Olympic distance triathlons next year, including the age group nationals, so it would be nice to get out of the water with a halfway decent time, yet be relatively fresh at the start of the bike. To do that means improving my technique, and more time in the pool this winter and Spring. Now if Santa will only co-operate and get me a nice wetsuit!
thehitman[/QUOTE]
We could make a commitment right here in the trifuel to do an olympic distance by the end of August . Im doing one anyway. I need a wet suit too. Have a little insulated diving top that will do in the worst case. Maybe Jose's family will give us one for our birthdays since we are also nice, and they seem to be very generous
Blitz
Check the vid out here:
[url]http://www.futuredreams.co.nz/default.asp?PageID=1008[/url]
The guy's name is Haydn Wooley and apparently he does 7 strokes per 25m. Gotta feel sorry for the guy in the next lane!!
That is a great vid. Wow...
that's amazing. I almost don't believe it.
It looks like he is being pulled by an invisible rope.
I use so many more strokes. I'm like the guy next to him.
I keep looking at the video and thinking the same thing,
and the pool doesn't seem like 25 meters, or this guy is huge!!
Is it possible that the pool is 25 yards or shorter, when I was in Australia and New Zealand years ago the pools there were mostly yards. 20y , 25y , 50y, and 55 y. Howev er it does say 25m on the clip.
[QUOTE=Blitz]We could make a commitment right here in the trifuel to do an olympic distance by the end of August . Im doing one anyway....
Blitz[/QUOTE]
OK, I'll commit to doing at least 2 Olympic distance events next year. Some have said I ought to be committed!!! ;)
I haven't made out a tentative schedule yet, but the Big Foot Triathlon in late June looks good. Maybe that'll give me a chance to compete against Catwood for two consecutive weeks, so we can see how we're progressing --- she was a few seconds ahead of me at the Rockton Tri last year. :eek: And then the Age Group Nationals in August.
Better hit the road now!!!
thehitman
Okay Hitman,
I will do one at the beginning of the season in Zug. Got to go read up on neoprene's. You know this will mean more pool time for you buddy!
Here we go!
Blitz
Time to start counting more strokes. Or less, depending on how you look at things.
If you're at 14 strokes per 25m lap, I have mucho work ahead of me to catch up --- I slow down to a snail's pace when I try to get below 20. :(
thehitman
Im down to 12 now. Must be that dried reindeer heart.
Blitz