help me run - please!
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john_grieco posted 1 year ago.
I hear what you're saying - I'm in the same situation - I was a cyclist turned triathlete and I'm trying to convince myself that running is fun but I know that for me right now it isn't.
Couple observations that I found along the way: 1) How hard do you push on the bike? I push very hard and leave little for running nad have blown up. 2)How is your nutrition going into the run? Do you feel like you got in some calories and are well-hydrated on the bike to get you through the run or are you feeling spent going in T2?
Back to training - My coach/friend has offered some advice 1)Do what you don't like doing in training A LOT. For me it's hill repeats and more importantly, long steady runs on a track or trail keeping my heart rate locked in on zone 1 - In the words of Mark Allen, "I don't care if you have to slow down to a walk", just manage your HR at whatever your fitness will support you at.
Onto technique: Think about keeping your upper body relaxed shoulders loose, focus on foot strike - where does your foot meet the ground? Is it on the heel? or closer to the mid sole? If it's on the heel, that tells you that your center of mass is behind you and it causes you to slowdown on each stride. Ideally it should be on the midsole. so that your not decelerating when your foot lands on the pavement. I run a lot on the treadmill and I have to admit it is because of convenience and, for me, it was easier - I think the treadmill masks the foot strike issue a bit because the tread moves your foot back, preventing the deceleration whereas running outdoors, you have to propel your body forward.
I'm not great runner heading into my 2nd training season, but I feel that I learned and know what to do to get better and I'm sure you can also - I mean if your a decent swimmer and cyclist, you should be able to match that level of performance in your running.
and you will - good luck!
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go."
-T. S. Eliot
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big 3 posted 1 year ago.
I've got the Polar Foot Pod which gives me my running pace.
I found that after getting off my bike and starting my run I would run at a pace that was much much faster than my training runs. Of course my HR would peak within a minute or two and I'd have to walk then start again once I've recovered.
I guess after moving so quickly on the bike I have a difficult time slowing down my run pace by feel. The polar watch has helped me realize this.
Not sure if this applies but I'm glad to have instantaneous pace feed back from my watch. Maybe after doing this for a few years that won't be necessary.
Good Luck
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kxux posted 1 year ago.
big 3;85717 wrote:
I've got the Polar Foot Pod which gives me my running pace.
I found that after getting off my bike and starting my run I would run at a pace that was much much faster than my training runs. Of course my HR would peak within a minute or two...
I think there are two things you are facing - one is what big3 posted - e.g. when you get off the bike you tend to keep the cadence in high 90s and that can make you run very, very fast and blow up after a mile or so. What helps me is to have a pacing plan for the race and stick to my mile splits. If you are unable to gauge your speed look into a watch that will give you the instant pace. Some people use Polar, some use Garmin or Timex. I'm using Polar S625X and I'm very happy with it. With the watch and the foot pod I can keep my pace in check for the first mile or two until I get into a comfortable pace.
Second is your training - looks like you have similar problem in running if you do not keep your pace in check like you do on a treadmill. The watch with pacing info will help you as well. Plus the watch will show you your HR and you can stick to the heart rate zone you need to be in. For long runs it is usually zone 1 or 2 depending on what you are focusing on in that particular session.
Good luck improving your running.
Jan
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tri-ac posted 1 year ago.
it sounds like you need to work on your base a little with a HRM. try two or three weeks of running in zone 1. try to get to a point where you can run (not walk) consistently in zone 1 and remember what this feels like. then, during brick transitions, start out with this zone 1 pace and ramp up slowly to your racing/training pace once your legs come under you for the run.
at first, zone 1 will feel ridiculously slow compared to what you feel a jog should be. But what you will find is that the more you do it, the faster you will go while staying in this zone.
Adam
Tri-ac
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jacmun posted 1 year ago.
I agree with the guys. Forget speed work for a while and build up some long slow aerobic distance, even if you initially have to walk to keep that HR under 75%. Some of the effect you see in your event may be aerobic decoupling. May coaches judge sufficient aerobic base by how the HR behaves when we tire. In the very fit as power falls with exhaustion so will the HR. If your aerobic base is underdone, your HR will climb as your power output drops (or speed falls in the run)
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kakman posted 1 year ago.
many thanks folks - I'm thinking I might start to do some 'power' walks and just see where my HR sits. If that goes OK, work in some slow running until I can keep it low. Once I can do that, try ang get the time up to 30-40 minutes and beyond. I think it's a long road (pardon the pun) but the advice sounds good so I'll give it a shot.
Thanks again.
/k
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big 3 posted 1 year ago.
I noticed your focus is sprints currently. That's all I could handle this year, I started from a couch potato about a year ago.
I picked up the Joe Friel "total heart rate training" book. In that book he says that depending on the length of the even you will train & race different HR Zones.
For Sprint Distance Race effort is Zone 4 and so is a good part of your training. That is what I did. My longest run was 5 miles though. Longest bike was probably 20 miles.
It has taken me the better part of the year to finally gain the cardiac fitness needed for running to actually "run" in Zone 1-2. I'm not sure if I would have reached this goal if I had walked/jogged in zone 1 to prepare for the sprints event.
I understand that the longer races require you to perform in the lower zones but I know I'm a couple years from that. So I didn't go the low zone training route at first.
Next year I have some olympic distance events planned. So I've started training longer and lower zones and it's going well.
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kakman posted 1 year ago.
Ok, time to report back. After a depressing couple of days decided to take a run on Monday night. Dropped daughter at Judo and went on the normal run around the block (about 800 metres). The best I've ever managed is 4 laps - 3.2 k - and it was slow and I was wasted.
this time, wore my HRM and made a conscious effort to do what everyone suggested - keep HR low no matter how slow I go. Walked a lap to warmup and then broke into a very slow jog. Very short stride and trying very hard to keep cadence up and HR down. Did first running lap and didn't go above 143 bpm (my max is high 160's). Lap 2 able to stay the same. lap 3 climbed slowly to 150 going up a slight hill. Lap 4 back to mid 140's and I'm actually feeling good - breathing a strong rhythm but not panting like usual and feeling pretty good. Decide to try for lap 5, no problem, what the heck, let's do 6. Finish 6 pretty easily although my niggly knee is niggling a bit. Run another half lap and walk the rest to warm down. Total run, 5k!! I've *never* run 5k in my life.OK, it was slow, but I finished.
Tried again tonight over a different course - nearly 6k and felt like I could have kept going. max HR 152, av 135. A normal (blow up) run for me is max 168, av @ 150.
I actually enjoyed tonight - the first time I could say I genuinely enjoyed running! My new runs are way, way slower than I would ever have thought to try but I'm really encouraged by the results. I'm actually looking forward to doing more and trying to slowly build it up.
Thanks again for the advice everyone.
/k
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kylie posted 1 year ago.
very cool! Glad you were able to get it all in place for you :) And best of luck at the 5k I'm sure you'll do soon! ;)
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Iron Dan posted 1 year ago.
Glad to hear your runs have been going better. I can be frustrating when things like that happen, but keep it up and your running will only improve. Way to go.
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kakman posted 1 year ago.
OK, time for another update - this time from an actual 'race' (It was an untimed fun event but still run like a race)
Around 3 or 4 out of the water (hard to tell because we'd caught people from 3 waves ahead) and held on well in the bike and then the dreaded run. Mentally, I was way better prepared than any of the previous 3 tris - I actually left t2 thinking I would be able to complete the run without walking.
Started the run with HR about 148 and started my "short stride shuffle™". I had hoped it would drop to low 140's but it just slowly climbed into the low 150's. Don't panic, ignore everyone (even the 9yo girl who ran by) and just concentrate on keeping the HR under control. Well, it never dropped below 152 and climbed to a high of 158 but I never 'blew up' - just kept plugging away and finished without walking. I even passed a couple of guys who were run/walk/run/walk/running.
So thanks all, the 'slow and steady' training appears to have started to working and I'm sooo encouraged by the ability to sustain higher HR's than I train at. Perhaps there is a light at the end of the running tunnel.
Thanks again.
/k
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fluro2au posted 48 weeks ago.
Hello kakaman,
I have a couple of questions for you that may eventually help you with your running.
1. How many times PW do you currently run?
2. What are your running training zones? (ie friel zones)
3. How long do you normal run for?
4. What distance events are you training for?
5. What are your running goals?
"did first running lap and didn't go above 143 bpm (my max is high 160's). " (kakaman)
Is this really your max??? or is this your functional threshold max (ie av hr for a 10k all out run)
Even if your FT is high 160's I still think if your running in the mid 140's your running too hard to be able run enough so that you'll really get some good aerobic adaptations occuring. It sounds like your very much in the 'grey zone'. that is your running to hard to enhance aerobic developments and not hard enough to enhance threshold developments. Your in No-mans land.
does that make sense??
Paul
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Anton posted 48 weeks ago.
It's great you're finally getting a handle on this...Running is not easy. Not everyone is built for it, but slowing down and working within your limits WILL lead to better things. Your limits will extend out over time...and that's the key...over time. Don't push it. My wife started running at 53 and after two years things are finally coming together. When she started she had more bad runs than good...now it's flipped. Work on your steady base running and in a few more weeks add 10% of your total distance. Spread it out over the week or put it all in a longer run...but maintain your new found pace. when that becomes comfortable, do it again. Some folks will tell you to add 10% a week...I think going by how you feel is better...especially at our age. Unless, that is, you really want to trash those knees and hips! ;)
"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" - Vincent Van Gogh
My Blog: http://agingsuperhero.blogspot.com
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kakman posted 48 weeks ago.
fluro2au wrote:
1. How many times PW do you currently run?
2. What are your running training zones? (ie friel zones)
3. How long do you normal run for?
4. What distance events are you training for?
5. What are your running goals?"did first running lap and didn't go above 143 bpm (my max is high 160's). " (kakaman)
Is this really your max??? or is this your functional threshold max (ie av hr for a 10k all out run)
running every second day when my body allows - a niggling knee injury is my major restriction at the moment
typically run for 35 to 40 minutes which is a major improvement from when I started (10 minutes max). I've been building to this very slowly - once again my knee is the problem
I started (struggling) at about 2-3 k. I'm now doing around 7-8k without stopping. Did I mention my knee plays up:)
Training for sprints. Only started the tri game about 12 weeks ago so decided to spent this season doing novice/enticer events. I've never been a runner so figured I'd just enjoy myself until next season and then start doing sprints with the goal of olympic at the end of next season. There is a sprint down here in late feb and I'm thinking I might do that as I'm pretty sure I can handle the 5k run now.
I don't have too much in the way of running goals other than what I said above. Would be nice to be able to get to 10k next year and I see that as doable at the rate I'm going.
Yes, hi 160's really is my max (I'm 50 this year). When I run I try and keep the heart rate under control. I'm not aiming for a specific zone - just a rate where I can run until my knee fails without ever redlining. The more I'm doing the better it's becoming. Early on I was *barely* running and my HR would hit 160 in a couple of minutes. Now I can run about 5min k pace and average low 140's. Normally the first half of the run would be low 130's. I might max high 140's up hills.
I'll agree I'm probably in a grey area though - not sure whether to try and keep running the steady distances I am with less effort or whether to push out to longer runs. I know I joked a bit about the knee before but that really is my limiting factor at this stage. It's a long and complex story which ties in with a bone spur in my ankle and a couple of spinal surgeries I've had.
I'm only doing tris for the fun of it so I accept the limitations I have for now and plan on slowing working to maximise the fun while I can. I'm all ears to any assistance but my physical and aerobic needs may not necessarily align:)
cheers
/k
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910 days
hakadoru posted 47 weeks ago.
From Mark Allen's, Gordo Byrn's and some other perspectives, HR is only a measurement of stress. That's it. If your heart is beating at 150 bpm running on a flat or walking up a hill, it doesn't know that you're running or walking. It just knows that it's working at 150 bpm.
That's the general premise behind the HR method of training. You train within a prescribed range and it takes a lot of effort to leave the ego at home during the Z1-Z2 "runs."
I'm going into my third season (not counting the seasons from the early 90s followed by a lonngggg gap) and have finally made a concerted effort to build my aerobic base. Like you, my HR skyrockets on runs. My Z1-level run is mostly a walk with spurts of running at a 14-min/mile pace; my Z2-level run is about a 12-ish min/mile pace.
Consciously training in Z1-Z2 on the bike and run has improved my swim first, followed by a slight improvement in my bike (about 10 bpm decrease for the same perceived effort and speed), with the run coming along slowly (as seems to be the norm).
hak
The Outdoor Journey: Exploring the multisport life through the crucible of endurance
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longhair posted 47 weeks ago.
My story, to commiserate with your story.
34 year old male, athletic history in soccer and volleyball, 5'9", 168 lbs. I am built to break things, not run. I am also a long time cyclist, and gave this triathlon sport a try on a lark. Now I am hooked.
I am preparing for my third season, and I am taking Mark Allen's advice...build a base with a lot of easy running. As someone said, you really need to check your ego at the door. I run three times a week, mostly Mon, Wed, and Fri, and I only have an hour to run each day. So, for the past few years, I blast as fast as I could for about an hour, usually a 7:45 - 8:00 pace (see, not really setting any land speed records). I would mix in some sprints and hills, but nothing regular. Consequently, come race time, my pace would be about the same as the training runs.
Now, with some experience, and some knowledgable friends, I am changing my approach.
Winter workouts will be long slow runs, trying to keep the HR in the high 130's to low 140's. This equates to about a 12 minute mile. (again, got to check that ego at the door, it feels like I am walking). I started this in december, and will continue it until mid march. Then, speed work (not sure what yet, but Mr. Allen will have a recommendation). I do events from June to September, and I plan to do a half IM for the first time in either July or September. I am designing my plan to "peak" for the half IM.
I will say that so far, my body feels great, I have not put on any weight this winter, and everything seems to be going according to plan.
Good luck, and hang in there, relax, and enjoy!!
Did another tri today (my 3rd) and the swim and bike went fine but once again, crashed badly in the run (or should I say walk/run). :(
I've never been a runner per se - played a lot of running sports, but was never a 'jogger' of any sort. What's happening is that within a few hundred metres my heart rate is just red-lined and I *need* to back off (walk) to get it down. I can do hard intervals, steep hills or long rides on the bike and rarely see the heart rates I do on a 1k run. Is it simply a matter of 'running fitness'?
I should point out this is not specifically a brick/tri crash - I have the same problem when I just go for a run when I'm fresh!
Can someone offer suggestions on what to do to improve this? It's getting depressing...
I'd love to be able to run in the same way I bike or swim - able to push to exhaustion when trying really hard, but also able to back off to the point I feel I could do it for hours. Funny thing is, I can run on a treadmil for 40 minutes and do just that - HR never gets about about 85% and feel like I could do it all night.
Suggestions, please...
/k