I have just started into my 5th season of doing tris and I seem to be lagging behind on the bike. My bike splits for short distance triathlons (10-40K) haven't improved at all since my second season. My first season I was new to endurance sports so I figured the rapid improvement between seasons 1 and 2 were just gains in general fitness. Some things I have tried that have not lead to any improvement include:
-losing weight
-increasing volume
-lifting weights.
Currently I am biking 5x a week with a total of about 140km a week (one endurance ride of 60K plus 4 short interval rides of 20K). The interval rides are doing mostly at threshold pace or race pace. I haven't gone to aero wheels only because I am doing sprints (20K) and I didn't figure it was necessary for short course triathlons (are they?). I dropped my volume from 180K a week to 140K a week in favor of more intense bike sessions. I did this mainly because the added volume didn't have any effect on my bike splits.
I am at a bit of a loss with respect to my bike split performance, I thought in 3 years I should have seen some improvement in my race times but I haven't, this is not the case with the swim and the run where there has been noticeable improvement. Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks.
bike longer, get more volume
bike longer, get more volume in
I should have mentioned last
I should have mentioned last year that my long rides were 3-5hrs and my short rides where 1.5 to 2 hrs. There was no improvement in bike split, regardless of increasing my time in the saddle.
What metric are you using to
What metric are you using to gage improvement? "bike-split", what do you mean? Are you running faster off the bike? I can't say my bike leg has improved much over the past few years, but I run faster and faster off the bike, thus showing bike fitness gains since it doesn't effect me as much any more.
I think you are on a see-saw, or doing too much, and then not doing enough and you just haven't found that happy "middle". If you do too much, the body can't "absorb" it. It is so freaked out, that the last thing it needs to deal with is becoming stronger. The cellular structure isn't there to support the added stress, so it (fitness), just can't grow. It is like throwing a seedling in the ground, with soil that is no good, it ain't going to grow.
It just doesn't sound like the deep physiological foundation is there to support the demands of training, and thus see steady improvements. Without looking the the intricacies of each day, week, month and year, can't really say. But yes, something is off. You have yet to find that balance between stressing just the right amount, to allow for the right amount of growth.
Sorry, but how you do that is another thesis statement!!! Still haven't forgot about the other one!
vjohnson wrote:What metric
[quote=vjohnson]What metric are you using to gage improvement? "bike-split", [/quote]
I am at the top of my AG for the run and swim but not the bike. But that isn't the whole story, also I have seen no improvement in the bike over the last couple of years where as there has been a steady improvement each year for the run and the swim. Better training has equaled better results and this is not the case for the bike.
[quote=vjohnson]Are you running faster off the bike? [/quote]
Yes I run much faster off the bike, but I am also faster at 5Ks so I figured this would be more due to running fitness. My 5Ks in tris are still slower than what I normally would run a 5K at.
[quote=vjohnson]
I think you are on a see-saw, or doing too much, and then not doing enough and you just haven't found that happy "middle". [/quote]
That is why I sacrificed some of the volume this year for better quality training. I love biking so it isn't hard to encourage me to get out and put down lots of miles at endurance pace, but since I am racing sprints (20K) I am not sure this is all that necessary and it didn't seem to improve my biking splits anyways: I think I doubled or tripled my volume from the year before and my bike splits were practically the same.
[quote=vjohnson]
It just doesn't sound like the deep physiological foundation is there to support the demands of training, and thus see steady improvements. Without looking the the intricacies of each day, week, month and year, can't really say. But yes, something is off. You have yet to find that balance between stressing just the right amount, to allow for the right amount of growth.[/quote]
I think it is the lack of improvement that is bothering me most, not the fact that I am not at the top of my AG for the bike. If there is no improvement it feels like training is a "waste of time" and its demotivating. I just started doing hard interval training about two months ago, does it take a year for that to pay off? Just curious. Because if that is it I can wait it out.
[quote=vjohnson]
Sorry, but how you do that is another thesis statement!!! Still haven't forgot about the other one![/quote]
LOL! You don't have to write a thesis statement, I am fueling my workouts now with a thrifty bit of eload, still worried about the added calories but I definitely notice a boost in metabolism. I am getting another DEXA done in August so we'll see how much fat I burned off.
Here is my utterly
Here is my utterly non-scientific approach with that time budget:
1. Ditch the 5th ride.
2. Do 1 long ride per week 2 to 3 hours. HR zone 2, not hard, but not noodling around either. Run off the bike if you feel like it.
3. Do 1 intervals/hill ride per week. 35-50k. This should be the hardest workout you do in any sport, ever. During the intervals, you should aim for above race pace, max HR, suffering, seeing spots, redline, just shy of puking efforts. Puking at the end is OK. If you wake up the day of this workout actively dreading the ride, you are doing it right. If you feel like you can easily run a few km off the bike afterwards, you are doing it wrong. Reward yourself afterwards with beer and/or ice cream.
4. Do 1 tempo ride per week, just shy of race pace for 25km or so plus a long warmup and cooldown. Run off the bike if you feel like it.
5. Do 1 ride with no purpose other than fun and recovery. Ride with friends, family, or alone. Go as hard or easy as you feel like, for as long or as short as you want, so long as you are recharging. Feel free to stop and smell roses/buy ice cream/do whatever along the way. Just enjoy having a bike and being good at riding it.
Ride with faster people Try
Ride with faster people
Try to keep up with them
When you can hang, find new faster people
But what are you actually
But what are you actually using to measure this bike fitness? A monthly test? Race results on similar courses? How do you actually know you aren't improving?
I know tons of people that can blow me away in a 5K, but I can beat their 5K split in a tri. Having the ability to run doesn't mean much, if you don't have bike fitness.
I would argue that you are improving your aerobic engine on the bike, but the top end speed/power may be plateauing. Again not knowing what your training looks like, the training might not be there, or time in the pain box might not be enough.
vjohnson wrote:or time in
[quote=vjohnson]or time in the pain box might not be enough.[/quote]
bingo, I know that's my issue. I spend FAR too much time in the dreaded grey zone and not nearly enough time feeling like I'm gonna puke on my top tube. And what a surprise, I've spent a couple years in that grey zone and become really proficient at... riding at that same grey zone speed.
tri-ac wrote:Ride with
[quote=tri-ac]Ride with faster people
Try to keep up with them
When you can hang, find new faster people[/quote]
This is what I was thinking also. What do the fast people in your area do? One of the cycling teams here does hammer sessions every Wednesday. I've never been to one, but they explained it's where they practice the ending of a stage by leading out their sprinter. Sorry if my terminology is not accurate. If it worked for my schedule (and I was invited), I'd love to train like that regularly.
A local tri shop has sprint points on their Tuesday rides. Other rides during the week are slow and have a no-drop policy, but Tuesday is the day to put on big boy pants.
vjohnson wrote: I think you
[quote=vjohnson]
I think you are on a see-saw, or doing too much, and then not doing enough and you just haven't found that happy "middle". If you do too much, the body can't "absorb" it. It is so freaked out, that the last thing it needs to deal with is becoming stronger. The cellular structure isn't there to support the added stress, so it (fitness), just can't grow. It is like throwing a seedling in the ground, with soil that is no good, it ain't going to grow.
[/quote]
Too much running or too much lifting I can imagine, but cycling I always thought the body could absorb crazy high volume. Having the time to actually do that amount of volume is another story. For someone who's typical week is 140k like Hamlet, what's a good guess on how much is too much? My average volume over the last year has been the same as Hamlet, so I'm asking for my own selfish reasons. 2 weeks ago, I'd say 250 miles (400k) per week was fine as long as there was no intensity. However, my legs are absolutely shot.
Thanks everybody, based on
Thanks everybody, based on some of your suggestions I am going to make some changes to my bike training and see if that makes a difference.
@VJ, I am measuring my bike fitness based on the fact that I am still biking at around 30km/hr after 4 years of training. And the top cyclists in my age group are just a bit faster than that. Around 32-33km/hr. It is the fact that my biking speed (for my splits) hasn't improved it is still hovering at around 30km/hr. I feel like after 4 years of training I should be at least a bit faster.
dkhartung wrote:vjohnson
[quote=dkhartung][quote=vjohnson]or time in the pain box might not be enough.[/quote]
bingo, I know that's my issue. I spend FAR too much time in the dreaded grey zone and not nearly enough time feeling like I'm gonna puke on my top tube. And what a surprise, I've spent a couple years in that grey zone and become really proficient at... riding at that same grey zone speed.[/quote]
Is once a week enough to go into the pain box for cycling?
Why not just start with one
Why not just start with one killer session a week and see how you feel?
Here's a fun little trainer session I'll use:
Ten minute warm up
6 x (3 minutes as hard as I can hold for 3 minutes, then 2 minute recovery spin)
Ten minute cool down, spinning the legs at higher cadence easily.
that's 50 minutes, and I'm usually a puddle at the end.
If you feel like you want to add more, then you can do one session with shorter repeats (2 min on, one minute recover, or one minute brutal, one minute off), and add another session with longer work efforts (five on, three off, or ten on and five off). Point is to be holding a pace right at the edge where you are steady through the session, but probably can't do more than 1-23 more repeats without exploding.
vjohnson and others will have much better and more specific sessions than this, but I hope it gives you a sense for it.