I am just curious about whether or not anyone else worries about this. I am still doing sprints so the # hours of cardio I do is less than someone who is training for an IM, but sometimes I worry that if I start preparing for an IM it will up the hours of cardio I am doing and I will lose more weight. I don't really think I have to worry right now because I estimate that I still have 13lbs of body fat left whereas I think female pros have around 7-10lbs. I have also heard that a lot of cardio burns muscle. I don't know if that is a myth or not.
Does anyone else have these concerns? If so, how do you deal with them? Thanks.
I deal with not getting too
I deal with not getting too skinny/losing muscle by gaining weight after my peak race of the season. To start a season, I spend 12 weeks of lifting, in a way that promotes lean muscle growth. By the time my lifting sessions end, I'm 10-12 lbs outside of race weight. I usually gain 3-5 pounds of muscle mass (which is mostly water weight. The more muscle you have, the glycogen you store, and as a result more water retention). The rest of the weight is fat. Gaining fat, after getting borderline unhealthy, helps to get cortisol levels down.
So I gain weight to lose weight. I don't want my body going after, and breaking down tissue I'll need to race with. I've noticed over the last few years, after going through two lifting cycles/year, it becomes easier and easier to burn fat. The more muscle you have, the more calories you can burn. kcal burned per hour is directly related to your lean body mass, not just your body mass. So a 150 lb athlete, with 15% body fat, will burn less kcal/hr, than a 150 lb athlete with 8% body fat, under similar circumstances, all variables being equal.
In my personal opinion/observations with the folks I work with. Strength training seems to fix all. I just don't think it is utilized as much as it should. It has been the single most important aspect of my improvements over the years. Athletes over 35, and female athletes seem to show the bigger improvements.
vjohnson wrote: So I gain
[quote=vjohnson]
So I gain weight to lose weight. I don't want my body going after, and breaking down tissue I'll need to race with. I've noticed over the last few years, after going through two lifting cycles/year, it becomes easier and easier to burn fat. .[/quote]
When do your lifting cycles occur, ie. what time of year? Also do you mean to get down to race weight you also shed some muscle mass as well as the fat you put on during the lifting phase?
I lift during base phase.
I lift during base phase. So depending on when my "A" races are, different times of the year. I usually have two base phases, one that is 12 weeks, and one that is 8 weeks. Those are when I lift.
Yes I shed the muscle mass
Yes I shed the muscle mass and fat weight when I get to race weight. Every year, I get to the same weight, but more of it is muscle.
vjohnson wrote: Gaining fat,
[quote=vjohnson] Gaining fat, after getting borderline unhealthy, helps to get cortisol levels down.
.[/quote]
@VJ. Is this based on your actual experience, or are you just doing it based on theory you've read about. Just curious.
Depends on if it's "Skinny
Depends on if it's "Skinny Fat", or just skinny.
The former is worse.
I outline why in this video: http://www.tri-ripped.com
Hope that helps,
Ben
i was going to suggest
i was going to suggest looking at bens page :P someone beat me to it ...
thanks for everything u'v helped me alot Ben
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/
The levels of stress
The levels of stress hormones go down, with weight gain, after a time period of increased activity and weight loss. Fact.
vjohnson wrote:The levels of
[quote=vjohnson]The levels of stress hormones go down, with weight gain, after a time period of increased activity and weight loss. Fact.[/quote]
Do you know how long one should stay on a loss phase, before shifting back to a gain phase? I have read 12 weeks, but I am not sure this is right. I have been on one since April 3rd and am supposed to continue to July 3rd, and I wasn't sure if that was a good idea or not.
I've never heard of a timing
I've never heard of a timing for a loss phase or gain phase, so I can't accurately comment on it.
@VJ. What do you recommend
@VJ. What do you recommend if you have an athlete that needs to lose a significant amount of fat mass? Do you recommend they do it in the base phase, when it is primarily endurance work? Because when they are into threshold training you recommend fueling their workouts with sugar. Generally that isn't usually something you do when you are trying to burn off fat.
It is different than say the pros, where they stay pretty close to their race weight year round, and maybe only have a couple of pounds of fat to shed, which can be done in less than a month.
I like to look at weekly
I like to look at weekly diet numbers, before I can give recommendations.
Significant fat loss? I would determine what would be significant, based on data from the person.
What do you consider pretty close to weight race?
The folks I know put on 8-12, and go from anywhere between 8%-17%. The people with less lean muscle mass, change less. From my experience, the ones that don't fuel workouts right, lose less weight. I haven't had the time or patience to look into this, my wife who is a RD got me thinking out this as well, since I was observing this. Sometimes being too thrifty will calories, makes your body become thrifty with how and what it burns. It is like the folks that think by skipping breakfast, then will lose some lbs, but instead it stimulates the body to store more fuel as fat.
Fat is burned in a carbohydrate fire. Generally the mistake people make is that they don't fuel a workout, and think by doing so they will lose fat.
If you are losing more that a pound a week, that is pretty extreme/unhealthy. So most pros that safely lose weight will lose 2pds a month, when you get up to 4 you start to increase your risk of issues. It can be done, but it is risky.
My folks gain weight in base phase. I like them to be 8-12 outside of race weight at the end of base (for IM). The ones that lose the least, are the ones that struggle with properly fueling their efforts. I believe that efforts can burn more calories during and post, it they are properly fueled, thus in the end you lose more "fat", by taking in more carbs (this is only during a workout). Simple carbs intake should be STRICT day in and day out, when not in the workout window.
vjohnson wrote:Sometimes
[quote=vjohnson]Sometimes being too thrifty will calories, makes your body become thrifty with how and what it burns. It is like the folks that think by skipping breakfast, then will lose some lbs, but instead it stimulates the body to store more fuel as fat.
Fat is burned in a carbohydrate fire. Generally the mistake people make is that they don't fuel a workout, and think by doing so they will lose fat.
If you are losing more that a pound a week, that is pretty extreme/unhealthy. [/quote]
Great comments here vjohnson. One could probably get rid of this entire string and just focus on this quote and be fine. I know that when I take in carbs on my long rides, I definitely lose more body fat. When I try and starve the workout to lose weight, my metabolism goes into survival mode and tries to reduce the number of calories burned. So, I bonk out the workout and don't do myself any good, and I don't burn the fat and it doesn't do me good. That's a really bad two-fer.
vjohnson wrote:I like to
[quote=vjohnson]I like to look at weekly diet numbers, before I can give recommendations.[/quote]
Right now I believe my daily maintenance is somewhere between 2300cal - 2500cal. I do about 19hrs of training. 2 hours of that is strength training and the rest is cardio. Of the cardio half of it is at endurance pace and half is at threshold pace (roughly). I am not really sure what is going on with my weight because it seems to be going all over the place, but it looks like I am getting leaner. I have basically set it at roughly a 250cal deficit to achieve a .5lb fat loss per week. But some days I only work out 2 hrs and some days I work out 5hrs, so it isn't always a complete deficit.
[quote=vjohnson]
Significant fat loss? I would determine what would be significant, based on data from the person.[/quote]
I consider anything that takes longer than 8 weeks a significant amount of fat loss. Women really shouldn't lose more than a pound of fat a week (I don't think). I have never set myself up for more than that. Partly for the reasons you mentioned before but also because women do not want to put themselves in a position where they experience the starvation response.
[quote=vjohnson]What do you consider pretty close to weight race?[/quote]
I am 5'3 so I estimate my race weight to be somewhere between 110lbs and 114lbs. I am between 110 and 112 now, but I believe I am "overfat" by somewhere between 3-6lbs. So I am trying to change my body composition, the number on the scale isn't exactly the issue.
[quote=vjohnson] From my experience, the ones that don't fuel workouts right, lose less weight. [/quote]
Can you elaborate on this a bit. Because I don't eat during my workouts. Sometimes on my long bike rides I stop at the 2hr mark and have a small meal but most of the time I eat before and after my workouts. My workouts are never longer than two hours. The odd time I might go three hours before eating again, but that is because I choose to lift weights after my cardio sessions. I also eat 5 meals a day that include in them all the macros: protein, fat and carbs. Am I doing something wrong in your opinion?
[quote=vjohnson]
If you are losing more that a pound a week, that is pretty extreme/unhealthy. So most pros that safely lose weight will lose 2pds a month, when you get up to 4 you start to increase your risk of issues. It can be done, but it is risky.[/quote]
I have tried that but I found that it put my body into a weird state, like the starvation response. I ended up losing fat but also a lot of muscle, then when I returned to a "normal mode" I found myself binge eating and gaining a lot of extra weight. It didn't work for me. I prefer a slower method of .5lb - 1lb/week loss. It seems to be more sustainable.
[quote=vjohnson]
My folks gain weight in base phase. I like them to be 8-12 outside of race weight at the end of base (for IM). .[/quote]
Why up so high? Is this all fat mass that your talking about? That seems like a lot of weight fluctuation, wouldn't that be really hard on the person and the body to keep going up and down like that?
[quote=vjohnson]
The ones that lose the least, are the ones that struggle with properly fueling their efforts. I believe that efforts can burn more calories during and post, it they are properly fueled, thus in the end you lose more "fat", by taking in more carbs (this is only during a workout). Simple carbs intake should be STRICT day in and day out, when not in the workout window.[/quote]
I am really confused by this. Are you suggesting consuming sugar during a one hour workout? Doesn't your body use glycogen stored in the muscles as fuel for your workout. I normally only drink water in workouts that are one hour.
Sorry to inundate you with all these questions, you are the only person I know with advanced knowledge in this area. I was talking to my coach today about using a sports drink on my brick workouts and his knowledge isn't as advanced as yours for this type of thing. He basically said just experiment and see what works. I like to understand the theory behind it. Hopefully other people will benefit from reading this thread as well. I hope I am not driving you nuts with my questions. 8)
@hamlet_cat, what does your
@hamlet_cat, what does your strength training look like. Exercises? Weight? Reps? Sets?
Great stuff!
Great stuff!
vjohnson wrote:@hamlet_cat,
[quote=vjohnson]@hamlet_cat, what does your strength training look like. Exercises? Weight? Reps? Sets?[/quote]
Sorry it took so long to respond. I had to go get my program. Currently this is what it looks like:
Mondays:
Alternating pull down: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12.5 to 22lbs.
Seated row: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12.5 to 22lbs (x2)
Steps ups with high knee: 3 sets each leg with 10lbs.
Shoulder dips: 3 sets of 15 (body weight)
Squat with medicine ball toss up: 3 sets of 15 (8lb ball)
Back and side extension: 3 sets of 15 with 5lbs
Wood chopper on x cable: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 17.5lbs.
Tricep push down (rope) on x cable: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 17.5lbs
Pull backs on x cable: 3 sets of 15 on with each arm. 10lbs
DB curl: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 8 to 12lbs
Oblique twists with medicine ball: 3 sets of 15 (8lb ball)
Assisted pull ups: 3 sets of 6 (body weight)
closed grip pull downs: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 14.5lbs.
Wide grip pull downs: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 14.5lbs.
Wednesdays:
21s: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 7 to 10lbs.
Front raise: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
Bent over fly: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
overhead db press: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 7 to 10lbs.
shrugs: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 10 to 15lbs.
one arm pull ups: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12.5 to 22lbs.
incline db press: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12 to 15lbs.
timed plank: 3 sets (body weight)
push ups: 3 sets of 12 (body weight but only from knees)
crunches: 3 sets of 15
walking lunges: 3 sets of 15 each leg (with 2 10lb dbs)
Fridays:
Upright rows: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 10 to 15lbs.
Bent over lateral raise: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
Kickbacks both arms: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 10lbs.
hammer curls seated: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 7 to 10lbs.
tricep extension behind head: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 10 to 15lbs.
Candlestick raises: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
calve raises: 3 sets of 12
Overhead raises on bench: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
alternating pull downs with resistance band: 3 sets of 5 minutes w 1 minute rest.
My program was written by two different people, I combined both programs and that is what this is above. I have been doing it since December although I started with lighter weights and simplier sets. This is what it currently is.
vjohnson wrote:@hamlet_cat,
[quote=vjohnson]@hamlet_cat, what does your strength training look like. Exercises? Weight? Reps? Sets?[/quote]
Sorry it took so long to respond. I had to go get my program. Currently this is what it looks like:
Mondays:
Alternating pull down: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12.5 to 22lbs.
Seated row: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12.5 to 22lbs (x2)
Steps ups with high knee: 3 sets each leg with 10lbs.
Shoulder dips: 3 sets of 15 (body weight)
Squat with medicine ball toss up: 3 sets of 15 (8lb ball)
Back and side extension: 3 sets of 15 with 5lbs
Wood chopper on x cable: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 17.5lbs.
Tricep push down (rope) on x cable: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 17.5lbs
Pull backs on x cable: 3 sets of 15 on with each arm. 10lbs
DB curl: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 8 to 12lbs
Oblique twists with medicine ball: 3 sets of 15 (8lb ball)
Assisted pull ups: 3 sets of 6 (body weight)
closed grip pull downs: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 14.5lbs.
Wide grip pull downs: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 9.5 to 14.5lbs.
Wednesdays:
21s: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 7 to 10lbs.
Front raise: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
Bent over fly: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
overhead db press: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 7 to 10lbs.
shrugs: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 10 to 15lbs.
one arm pull ups: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12.5 to 22lbs.
incline db press: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 12 to 15lbs.
timed plank: 3 sets (body weight)
push ups: 3 sets of 12 (body weight but only from knees)
crunches: 3 sets of 15
walking lunges: 3 sets of 15 each leg (with 2 10lb dbs)
Fridays:
Upright rows: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 10 to 15lbs.
Bent over lateral raise: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
Kickbacks both arms: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 10lbs.
hammer curls seated: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 7 to 10lbs.
tricep extension behind head: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 10 to 15lbs.
Candlestick raises: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
calve raises: 3 sets of 12
Overhead raises on bench: 5 sets (15, 6,6,6 10-12) 5 to 7lbs.
alternating pull downs with resistance band: 3 sets of 5 minutes w 1 minute rest.
My program was written by two different people, I combined both programs and that is what this is above. I have been doing it since December although I started with lighter weights and simplier sets. This is what it currently is.
I have no idea why it posted
I have no idea why it posted twice.
Grow some muscle. Too many
Grow some muscle. Too many sets, too many reps.
Set 1 3 reps (you should struggle to get the third one)
Set 2 5 reps (adjust weight to struggle to get to the fifth one)
Set 3 7 reps (adjust weight to struggle to get to the 7th)
or do 2 reps, then 4, then 6. Boom done (obviously warm up a bit, before going right at it).
There just seems like a bunch of exercises that aren't sport specific. You need straight up power, force and propulsion, gotta start throwing the iron around.
It will take me a few weeks to get to that other post, that one will be a thesis.
Cliffnote version of the thesis. Patience. Make yourself puke from a bike workout on Tuesday, from a swim workout on Wednesday and a run workout on Thursday. Rest on Monday's and Fridays. Go long on the weekends. Hit the weights, HARD during base, stay aerobic in base. Eat real food, and only take in high doses of sugar during the workout window. Do that for three years, and you'll be where you want to be.
Ok thanks.
Ok thanks.
Hamlet Cat - Holy crap do
Hamlet Cat - Holy crap do you do a lot of sets ;)
Great info from VJ as normal. Using his run advice I've cut my times from 10's to 8's (for marathon distance) in less than 1 yr.
I can't wait to see the "thesis" when he has time.
vjohnson wrote: From my
[quote=vjohnson] From my experience, the ones that don't fuel workouts right, lose less weight. I haven't had the time or patience to look into this, my wife who is a RD got me thinking out this as well, since I was observing this. Sometimes being too thrifty will calories, makes your body become thrifty with how and what it burns. It is like the folks that think by skipping breakfast, then will lose some lbs, but instead it stimulates the body to store more fuel as fat.[/quote]
@VJ, you may want to investigate into this further. There maybe more going on here than just strictly biochemical responses. People who skip breakfast are often the same people who have unhealthy behaviors relating to food intake and exercise. These people tend to have problems with respect to their self image as well. For example I have a friend who will skip breakfast and later confess in private, it was because she ate a gallon of ice cream the night before. I will admit I skip breakfast on days when I have to run or swim first thing in the morning. Sometimes it is 3-4hrs before I get to eat anything. I don't have a problem losing fat. I am not challenging your knowledge, just concerned about your athletes' well-being. It is just food for thought.
J.Michael wrote:Hamlet Cat -
[quote=J.Michael]Hamlet Cat - Holy crap do you do a lot of sets ;)
[/quote]
I'm terrified of getting too skinny. Maybe its a woman thing...8)