Hamlet Cat,

I am half way through Matt Fitzgerald's book 'Racing Weight', this might not answer all of your questions but it certainly has given me a new perspective on what I eat. Might be worth having a read.

Selling Carbs makes more money.

Having unhealthy people makes money.

I've thought about the very same thing. Why is something SO important, so hard to be able to do right. Why is it stacked against us to make the right choices. Why do I feel like I make people uncomfortable when I get my lunch out, and get all the stares, and comments. Oh my what are you eating today, oh my you eat so healthy, oh my you make me feel gross, oh my you make me feel fat. Seriously, why do I eat alone now cause I can't stand feeling like a freak because I eat a @#%$ banana.

My wife is an RD, same thing, every time we go out with people, they feel like they need to be on their best nutritional behavior. Eating right is such a basic habit, but literally, impossible to obtain. It is not an acceptable behavior, period.

This is a utopian society kind of thought process. I can't see it ever happening, too much is invested in thriving on the addictions of our society (oil, carbs, etc.)

We are walking chemical reactions, that get certain sensations/chemical signals from our interactions with our environments. We are all addicts of something, this establishes our habits. We need habits, the difficult thing, is that society makes it easier for us to go down a road littered with too many poor habitual choices. It takes work, to establish better habits, and addictions. The work is ignoring the pressure to not do the right thing (media).

If P90X could profit more than Coke, we would be having a different argument. I can't find another option outside of the money issue, to explain how and why it has become impossible, and socially unacceptable to have "healthy" habits.

Could be location too. You are a few hundred miles north of me (I'm in Maine), go to Colorado (lowest percentage of "inactive" people (25%), compare to other states. CDC research paper), our feelings might be different. Not sure on that one.

sorry......one more thing. An accurate knowledge of food science is not sound, nor established, AT ALL!!! Food knowledge is set up, by our family units as we grow. Now after years of teaching science, I shake my head at my mother all the time. She MESSED me up, big time. Was it her fault, no because, she was taught by her mother, etc, etc.

Why are we having this "conversation" through this thread right now, well we went out in search of information, right/correct/research based information. We are knowledgable, because we took the time to step out of the single file line to the grave at an early age, as result of the amazing effects of the Western Diet:

Heart disease, diabetes, stroke, impotency (Can you imagine the infomercial for what we actually eat, if they were to run one), now that product wouldn't make any money.

So we have to be humble in our approach to those that just haven't understood yet, what a healthy lifestyle is all about. Just like we may be horrified by "them", they are horrified by "us". This separation is just one big misunderstanding based on lies we are taught through our exposure to dear old mom, and the commercial machine.

It is heavy stuff, and it takes a while for it to all sink in. Today I went over the carb/serotonin thing in class. To really get at the heart of what cravings are, and why I feel like I like this food and that food is hard to get across. To understand that a food could trigger a release of a "happy" chemical, is almost mind boggling, so it is dismissed. Happy isn't a thing, it is a feeling, and feelings are things, they are just chemicals, moving here and there (I'm being basic here, don't want to lose the audience here). That is hard to wrap your head around.

[quote=hamlet_cat]Sometimes I wonder, who buys the food from all these other sections ... there are almost no options for fast food ... how is it in a country where food is so easily accessible, that I struggle so much to find something reasonable to eat (ie. that works for my diet). What is going on?[/quote]

The ugly truth? Most people can't afford healthy food. Processed food is cheap b/c the base products for many/most of them (corn and HFCS and bleached white flour) is subsidized by the US Govt. Fast food also benefits from these subsidies (and scale). Healthy foods (defined in article below as fruits, veggies, lean meats and dairies) are exponentially more expensive - calorie to calorie - than junk food:

NY Times article
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/a-high-price-for-healthy-food/
"... higher-calorie, energy-dense foods are the better bargain for cash-strapped shoppers. Energy-dense munchies cost on average $1.76 per 1,000 calories (candy, pastries, baked goods and snacks), compared with [b]$18.16[/b] per 1,000 calories for low-energy but nutritious foods (ie, fruits and vegetables are rich in nutrients, they also contain relatively few calories)."

An exclusively- or majority-healthy food diet/pantry is not even a realistic consideration for the vast majority of Americans. Regardless of whether we like healthy food or not, we can't afford it. The following is back-of-the-envelope calculations based on real US Census data and combined with the data from the above-referenced study. Of course everyone will find exception with these calculations, so show me different data:

Median Household income: $50,046
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts
Monthly, after federal withholdings: $3,300
Avg. mortage payment: $1,088
Avg. monthly car payment: $479
Left over for all the other "stuff": $1,733. From that, let's go grocery shopping for our "household."

Avg. US household size: 2.59
2,000 "bad" calories per day = $3.52 * 2.59 people * 30 days in a month = $273, or
2,000 "good" calories per day = $36.32 * 2.59 people * 30 days in a month = $2,822

So if the avg. US household brings in $50k per year, has a mortgage and one car payment - and has no other bills! - there is still no way to pay for [i]only[/i] healthy food. You'll end with a monthly $1,000 deficit. What if you did half-and-half: Half good, half bad? 1,000 "bad" calories ($1.76) + 1,000 good calories ($18.16) = $19.92 * 2.59 people * 30 days = $1547. Still way over budget.

If our costs for health care weren't so high because we ate so unhealthy and lead such sedentary lives, maybe we could afford to eat healthier. ("We" being a collective "we".)

Its a circular path, that I'm not sure how we get out of. It would be nice if our health insurance were tied to how healthy an individual was. (sorry for being a little off topic and a little bit of politic-ee)

@ trisooner, this is just from my personal experience, in my heart I know I'm not right, but I'm still struggling with the cost of food argument.
I've been spending less on food, overall, since switching to healthier foods. More protein, more fat =more cost, but I'm more satisfied. I feel like its a wash, more carbs is cheaper, but I buy more to get the fill from an expensive option of fat/protein.
I'm just not sold on the better bargain thing yet. When you get six feet under, what is the bottom dollar amount of the food you purchased, and the cost of the care you needed based on those choices. I don't need vitamins, anti inflammatories, etc, based on the nutrional value of my food? So do I save money overall, compared to the carb consumer?

These aren't statements I stand by, just the things I wonder when I see different view points on the cost argument.

What to Eat by Marion Nestle is a must read. She poses some interesting arguments to the cost/caloric content argument. Bottom line is, if I have five bucks to my name I'm not going to roast up some brussels sprouts, carrots and turnips. It will be 5 items off the dollar menu

The last 2 summers my wife planted a garden with a wonderful mix of fresh vegetables. Chard, squash, tomatoes (yes technically a fruit), peppers, lettuce and spinach kept us full during the summer. Mixing these with lean protiens really made a difference. While not everyone has space to plant a garden, , if you can do it as the freshness is amazing.

There is a serious lack of understanding of the power of the foods we eat in North America. Even in medicine, doctors do not include much about food choices when discussing things with their patients unless the complaint is something that directly relates to a food item such as lactose intolerance or something. It's my uneducated personal opinion that medicine would benefit greatly from dietary input into treatment programs for headaches, cancers and many other common diseases or complaints.

We don't realize that what we ingest has consequences either good or bad. My grandmother is 102 years old and I equate much of her longevity to her lifestyle as a farmer and grower (along with not being sedentary) when she was younger which she carried into adulthood by having a very large garden where most of our vegetables came from. The foods she ate, whether considered high fat meat or not, we not adulterated, hopped up on antibiotics, or mixed with chemicals. We ate a lot of white pasta growing up (being an Italian family) but it was homemade often and not with chemicals.

As far as money goes, I am not sure if the costs average out or not, but I've noticed since we've started buying higher end meats, fish and vegetables that our food bill has gone way up. We also choose better snacks that are generally gluten free-again, more money.

Interestingly, we both decided to make an even better effort this year. After pretty much eating what I wanted this holiday season which included stuff I normally would not eat, my training has suffered, I am slower, and much less motivated to keep a training plan.

Food is so important!

We are all "fat", and lethargic when we are compared to .0001% of the population that we are up against in the media. We are compared to airbrushed images of already skinny, dehydrated, undernourished individuals that have prepped themselves for pictures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQZpVeWsfK4

What we are made to compare ourselves too is not real, nor a healthy state to be in. We see athletes at their top form, and we never get to see them in their offseason, at their "normal" weights.

I'm lucky in that I live in a town that is very active, and where people really think about the food they eat. Most of my neighbors have big vegetable gardens, as do we. And backyard chickens are so common here, they are a regular topic at our neighborhood association meetings. We have 10 of them. NONE of the children in our neighborhood are obese. Literally 0%. But our neighborhood is very walkable and bikeable, which is why people who value healthy lifestyles choose to live here. My little neighborhood corner market is 90% organic, and stocks local meat, dairy, eggs, and vegetables. I can buy a pound of local grass-fed hamburger, and a big organic salad literally 1/4 mile's walk from my house.

Though maybe I shouldn't say that I'm lucky because hubby and I chose to come live here. When we bought our house, there were houses that we liked more. Houses with dream kitchens and big Master bedrooms with fireplaces, and new countertops, but they were further from the center of town. We can walk or bike anywhere in town and so can our kids, that was really important when we bought our house. We also gave up a whole lot more money to come and live here. Living in Seattle it was easy for both of us to pull in big salaries. Here, people come to live here for the lifestyle, we have more baristas with PhD's than anywhere in the country. It's really hard to find good-paying jobs when employers know people will take less to keep a job here.

We also spend an obscene amount of money on food. My budget that I try to stay under is $1200 a month, and I don't always make it. In the summer when our garden is flourishing it's a lot easier. But our kids eat really really healthy. Lots of fresh fruits and veggies, good meats, eggs, raw goat's milk (local). We literally never get sick. People around us can be seriously ill, and we won't get whatever they have.

I just showed my kids the Minding Your Mitochondria TED talk. It's so powerful. It was yet another voice explaining why what mom says makes sense, LOL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc

So although most of America is just plain CRAZY, it is possible to build a local culture of food sustainability, walkability, bikeability, and good health. It all starts with us, and with the people that we influence around us. We might not even see them, but they do notice.

That being said, I'm going to lunch tomorrow with a big group of friends at the best hamburger place in town (fortunately, they serve local burgers!). I expect to get some words about the fact that I won't be getting fries or a shake, and won't be eating my burger on a bun. The joys of being an Outlier, LOL.

Being an Aussie, we have a public health system that pays an enormous amount on health care each year... it is always in the mega billions (reminding you we are a small population of 21million odd).
Yet I still don't understand why the government allows all the wrong foods. I know our liberal party goes by the stance that individuals have the right to choice, and should be allowed to choose both good and bad food, and it is their responsibility to eat according to standard healthy food guidelines (which in itself is another argument again). VJohnson makes the point that having unhealthy people make money? Surely the amount of money the government spends on a public health care system (probably different in the U.S. and I'd love to hear some reasons) must be far more than any trade offs or pay offs or whatever sneaky under the table deals might be had (if they exist) between large food corporations that produce all this rubbish and the government??? I must be missing something.
I wonder if it would come out cheaper to the government if everyone was actually healthy, and therefore less would be spent on fixing lifestyle diseases which many can be avoided by good diet and exercise? Aussies are similar to the U.S. in that we have similar proportions of our population that is overweight/obese.
Maybe politicians that run the country just dont really care about good finance and would rather just benefit themselves than really wanting a more healthy and happier population?

[quote=vjohnson]@ trisooner, this is just from my personal experience, in my heart I know I'm not right, but I'm still struggling with the cost of food argument.
I've been spending less on food, overall, since switching to healthier foods. More protein, more fat =more cost, but I'm more satisfied. I feel like its a wash, more carbs is cheaper, but I buy more to get the fill from an expensive option of fat/protein.
I'm just not sold on the better bargain thing yet. When you get six feet under, what is the bottom dollar amount of the food you purchased, and the cost of the care you needed based on those choices. I don't need vitamins, anti inflammatories, etc, based on the nutrional value of my food? So do I save money overall, compared to the carb consumer?

These aren't statements I stand by, just the things I wonder when I see different view points on the cost argument.[/quote]

actually you are both correct. 1st- Grocery store scenario- Eating healthy can be cheaper, but you have to have the time to think ahead and prepare your own food. I've contrived a way to eat extremely healthy (and full) on $20 a week (excludes weekends). Diet includes tons of fruits, veggies, protein, carbs, etc.

2nd scenario- Fast food scenario- Eating healthy means eating foods that have a short life-span of 3-10 days for most foods (except oats and rice those things last forever). While purchasing fresh foods can be cheaper, when you factor in the spoilage factor the cost of serving healthy foods skyrockets. When you look at unhealthy foods like BK, McD's, etc. the shelf life of these items means there is no spoilage. Therefore, in the aggregate it is cheaper, less time to prepare (which means more profit as less employee time is used, and probably most important) to eat unhealthy in this type of environment.

The 2nd scenario also answers Hamlet's ??? about not finding healthy alternatives to fast food. Have you ever stood in line at subway at 12:30 on a Tuesday. The line takes forever. I can go next door to mcd's and be in and out in 5.

[quote=hamlet_cat]This is part of what I am struggling with. When I had my DEXA scan done, the women who did the test said that I was "underfat" and that the recommendation for me would be to put on more bodyfat. And to choose foods that were more "calorie dense" and eat more carbs and fats. Which is basically what I am trying to avoid doing because I want to maintain my body weight. I don't really want to put on more fat. I am trying to choose foods that are "less calorie dense" and higher in protein. And choosing a diet which has a lower carb to protein/fat ratio. We discussed all of this and she said, well, they use the WHO recommendations when we analyse your data. So why am I being told the exact opposite to what I am trying to accomplish. It doesn't make sense. [/quote]

one thing to remember about getting bf measured is that the buckets of obese, normal, and under nurished, are all relative. And they are even more relative within regions. For example, I'm 5'10.5" and weigh 170 with bf of 8-9%. By U.S. society standards I am extremely lean. By Asian standards I would probably be considered on the upper end of normal.

On the flip side, by endurance standards I would be considered athletic-norm, but compared to standard sports I would be considered athletic- very lean.

As with most things, just follow the money as vjohnson stated.
There's a ton of money to be made by serving cheap food at a reasonable price to half-sick people. It is an especially attractive strategy when the people who profit from the poison are not having to fully pay for the healthcare costs. If you just think about it as an economic issue where externalities exist in the market, it makes sense.
The China Study is another good book. It paints a good picture of how much of what we think we know about food nutrition is really just a marketing message from large agribusinesses pushing cheap carbs and animal proteins.

@hamlet cat. The equations you are using are based on "averages" of populations, plus I never really could buy into the BMR since there are too many variables that it doesn't account for based on post exercise metabolism, and the intensity of the exercise. Get away form this idea of "calorie" dense food, what is that? Does it matter, if you pay attention to nutrient density? If I eat a pop tart and a serving of salmon, it will have the same caloric density, but BOY oh BOY they do different things inside of my body. So if I payed attention to caloric density, it wouldn't matter what I ate, the poptart or the salmon, but if I payed attention to nutrient density it would matter. This opens the argument, about calories in and calories out, using that idea, again it won't matter what I eat. I think the calorie is utilized WAY too much, instead of just looking at the macro and micro nutrients of a food product.

Remember that equation I gave you. That is what you should use, not counting calories.

@hamlet cat. What were the credentials of "this lady" that told you about your results about your DEXA scan? Where did you have it done?

This is all great stuff folks, there are plenty of hints in books like the Paleo diet, and in online sites battling for GMO labelling.. http://www.facebook.com/labelgmos, try this one. Yes it's about following the money. An acre of wheat is more profitable than an acre of carrots. And you can do more with it and it lasts longer... So 1000 acres of wheat there must be even more profitable right? Yep if you can find things to do with it and other food stuffs to add it into.. So it fills us up, but a huge amount of people have an intolerance to Gluten.... This is not important, profit is. Profit stays important because once you have money you can lobby governments and get presidents elected and have groups like Monsanto protect your investment , while the screw up the planet.
Many countries tell their citizens what they want them to hear... I mean come on can you imagine any government coming out with line, 'You are a load of lard asses and we are going to get you healthy'?
A truly healthy population is cheaper for a country that one that has diabetics, cancers, coeliacs, skin allergies, asthmatics etc; but no government seems to have figured that out yet? Food shortage on the planet? Yep there is, but only because food growth is so highly controlled.

@hamlet, gut reaction, not knowing much about you, 2000, seems really low. I would try the 2400-2800 range. The problem is, you've trained your body to work at a lower than normal metabolism, based on your activity level. You've become SO thrifty with your intake, that anything outside of that window, will express itself as fat stores, since the body is kind of freaky out. So you may gain weight initially, but you will lose it again, once your metabolism "regroups".
The true test to these statements (since I don't know if they are right, unless I was working with you), is if you start to develop some issues due to a stagnant metabolism, in the form of high cortisol levels, training performance/racing performance plateaus, and symptoms of overtraining (even though the volume might not success this). Things to think about, just monitor it. VJ

By the way, I wouldn't believe, or take to heart what the DEXA scan lady said. RD's are pretty much the best advice you can get. If their isn't an RD after their name, be suspect. With that said, their isn't any RD after my name, so be suspect!!! I'm married to one, so just be some what suspect.

You should totally read the book:

"Nourishing Traditions"

I would say it has probably comprised about 85% of the meals that we eat. We've pretty much learned how to make just about everything from scratch using that one cookbook.

HIGHLY recommend.

Cheers,
Ben Greenfield

Apropos to this thread on western diet, i Just watched "forks over knives" on netflix

It discusses a plant based diet as a way to avoid cancer and other diseases

I'd be interested to hear what others think of this documentary in reference to health nutrition and athletics. I've always been a fan of animal foods. The movie makes me
wonder now...

Of interest, an MMA fighter and an IM athlete are profiled as vegan athletes in the film (minor part of film, but interesting)

when people have a choice you are never going to get the outcome you may want. it is like people who complain about the kardashians. if you dont like them then why are you watching - turn the tv off. you have the choice. it is the same for food and just like the kardashians have an audience so does burger king etc. what really peeves me is when they talk about rewarding/paying/subsidising people for losing weight. so not only does it cost society in increased health costs because they are obese but now we have to pay them to do what they should have been doing in the first place - eating less, making better choices and getting their butt off the sofa. and i dont understand parents who do not accept responsibility for obese children. who is enabling who ?

Maybe politicians that run the country just dont really care about good finance and would rather just benefit themselves than really wanting a more healthy and happier population? You nailed it bennym1982!

I always liked the idea of a "fat tax." Make people pay $10/paycheck/% of bodyfat > 18%. If it's costing a person an extra $100 a paycheck they might think twice about eating that second Krispy Kreme with Big Mac chaser. Removing all escalators and replacing them with stairs would probably blow people's minds too. Remember walking/riding a bike to school? Think that happens much these days?

But as for the diet being all wrong: I agree. Bringing a sandwich or last night's leftovers to work for lunch every day creeps people out. Personally, I don't know how they can afford to eat out that often!

I'm incredibly lucky in that my office provides free fruit for snacks. They also have a selection of yogurts and every now and then hummus. Saves a bundle on our grocery bills. They also have sodas, chips, and candy but those don't really interest me anymore. I'll indulge in pretzels every now and then, maybe a cookie, but every day I grab apples, pears, bananas, or grapes. It works for me.

Eating out is a problem. If we want fast food, we hit up a Subway or, even better, a local deli but those aren't always convenient. If we want dinner out, the best options are Indian or some kind of Mediterranean. Again, not always available. Of course sometimes you really want the BBQ pulled pork or cracker thin pizza, just don't make it a habit :-)

I live in Northern California and I don't have any problems finding healthy items at the supermarket. I find stores that are health oriented and they do the work for me, I just go and buy their products. Whole Foods and Traders Joes are an example of these stores. I like the lifestyle of a very active athlete and I like to pay for it. I have to say that more than often I chunk on Chiken Burrito Bowls with sour cream and guac., but that is okay because it is part of my lifestyle.

When it comes to The China Study, and Forks Over Knives, Denise Minger has done a very thorough and thoughtful job of dissecting the facts. I agree with most of what she has to say, and as she's a semi-raw-foodist who has been both vegetarian and vegan, I believe she not only speaks from science, she speaks from experience.

Her first essay on The China Study: The China Study: Fact or Fallacy

Her very thoughtful and thought-provoking review and critique of Forks Over Knives: Forks Over Knives: Is the Science Legit?

buy a good amino acid supplement...that can help tremendously with your dietary concerns....the body utilizes amino acids in a variety of ways this will speed recovery after workouts as well...good luck