Quincyceltic, your post, and hamlet_cat's, have inspired me to the following. I hope it isn't seen as a highjack, so much as building on what I understand to be your sentiments:

---
Let me start by saying I honestly have all the respect in the world for the fishes out there, who seem to happily swim endless lengths in pools the world over. I'd even say I am envious of your swim speed, your training work ethic, not to mention your ability to endure the mind-numbing routine of it all.

I need help figuring out how to like swim training more. At its best, swimming is as cool as it comes. On a longer swim - typically, for me, this just applies to OWS - there are those zen-like moments where I can really feel like I am in the groove & soaring through the water (even if it's just barely under 2:00/100m) and it is a great feeling. I like that, except it happens pretty rarely, and just about never when training. This is frustrating, because I am almost always happy when I anticipate, execute, and recall just about every run and ride that I have.

The facts the way I experience them:

If I want to run, I put on my shoes and head out the door & go & go until I can't go any more. I breath in the fresh air and see the sun, while doing intervals, taking it easy... whatever I want/need to do. When finished, I am revitalized; it's usually one of the best parts of my day.

If I want to ride, I put on my shoes, head out the door, throw my leg over the seat & go & go until I can't go any more. I breath in the fresh air and see the sun, while doing intervals, taking it easy... whatever I want/need to do. When finished, I am revitalized; it's usually one of the best parts of my day.

If I want to swim, I get in the car (which, to operate, costs money and pollutes), drive to the pool ([i]if it is open when I am free[/i]), strip naked in front of others (I mean once in the change room, not the parking lot), lock most of my crap in a pay locker to keep others from stealing it, furtively wet myself for health regulation purposes under a scalding hot non-adjustable shower that I have to keep switching on because the timer button lasts for 4 seconds, gather up my other, non-locked-up crap together and march out onto the deck past air exchangers that blow my skin cold enough for goose bumps, wander about the one end checking out lanes trying to get a sense of where some others of similar pace/effort are swimming so that I can intercept them to discuss my needs and reach a truce for lane sharing, go & go until I run into the feet of one of them and have to stop or one of them runs into my feet and I have to stop, continually evade the tools who swam a fast set but now do slow-mo breaststrokes for cool down without switching lanes, stare at a line on the floor of the pool the entire time, try to get my intervals in without compromising my pace/timing or that of others, climb out and reverse the whole cold/hot/nude-fest/locker/drive-in-traffic process. I've been in Zone 2 or above for, at best, one third of my time invested. Almost every "fish" I have ever come upon maintains that I need to do this at least five or more days/week if I am going to acquire that mystical "feel" for the water and see real improvement. Huh. Sorry, but I've "felt" enough water to know that - unless I am missing something here - I will content myself with coming into T1 and having an easy time finding my bike, if you know what I mean.

So what am I missing? Just the fact I wasn't doing this as a kid? Bad genes? Not wanting to offend, but, for me, it is just too sad a way to spend solid chunks of five or more days per week trying to get a better "feel" when it will only yield me a handful of minutes of improvement per tri. The compromise to make it otherwise would cost too much in my quality of life. This sounds like the sour grapes of a pool newdle; it's not that serious - like I said I really do think the act of swimming itself is very cool - it is just that the training [i]sucks![/i]

Gawd that felt good.

you know.. i have been considering joining a masters class.. as I am not happy with my swim speed.. but one of the reasons I don't want to join is because I feel like the whole thing will cause me more stress and I am so stressed out enough.

geez snail male, tell us how you really feel! ;-)

Yes, having to endure the pain that you go through just to get a swim in would be a huge pain. When you look at it in b&w, yes it is definitely not worth it to spend 5 days a week swimming to gain only a few minutes. However, it is not b&w. If done properly, a solid swim regiment will not just work on swim fitness, but drastically improve your overall stamina, endurance, mental toughness, lactic acid, etc. Everything you need to push yourself in triathlon. The other great benefit of beating yourself up in the pool is that your recovery time is far less than that of biking or running. You can beat yourself up swimming day in and day out and be fine. You can't do the same for running and to a lesser extent biking.

The better the swim fitness the better fitness you'll have for the bike and thus the run. So, that a 5 min improvement on the swim could cause you to have a XX min faster bike and XX min faster run.

You have to find a way to embrace the swim training. It's taken me the better part of 2 years to do so and now I can never wait to get to the pool and relish the pain that comes from doing hard sets in the pool.

Quin... A masters class isn't a must and I haven't used one in 2 years. You are definitely right that a 1 hour masters class gets your just a tad over 2,000 when if you swam on your own you would get some where between 3,000-3,500. If you can develop your own swim training sessions (its not that hard) then go for it. You'll get way more out of swimming on your own over time. Specifically in the form of more yards/ meters and that you can time your rest to be as short as you want. Those are the two biggest benefits I find to swimming on your own.

[quote=Quincyceltic]I guess this post kinda relates to one posted by Hamlet_cat about busy lane swimming. Is Masters really all that benificial for those that are focused on Ironman? [/quote]

Well, swimming with a good Masters group can be incredibly beneficial. But sadly, it doesn't sound like you have a good group :-( Your coach is not doing their job if the chaos you're describing is the order of the day. Here's how my Masters group runs:

Five minutes before practice, we meet in the hot tub for my Official Hot Tub Briefing. Everyone stretches while I describe the Skill of the day that I want them to be focusing on, how to execute it properly, and the drill we will use.

Then it's on to warmup, they get some laps in, then start working on the drill. We can have 4 - 6 per lane, but everyone knows what lane to swim in and what their companions' speeds are, so we adjust accordingly if we need to. If someone is new, I talk to them and place them in an appropriate lane for their speed/skill.

Then it's on to the drill sets and I try to give each person individual feedback on their stroke, focusing on the skill of the day that we're working on.

With warmup and drills over, it's Main Set time. This is where we get down to business. Workouts are varied and tough, with enough challenge for each lane to make sure they're working hard.

After main set and cool down (We swim 4,000+ yards in about 1:30) it's hot tub time for BS'ing and fun discussions. Our team is an awesome group of folks, so lucky to have them to hang out with. We had a party last week, probably 40 people there, all of which I would willingly hang out with anytime.

So I guess what I'm saying is that your coach should be:
- Managing the lanes and speeds
- Making sure everyone gets technique help
- Making sure everyone is improving
- Making sure everyone gets a good hard workout
- Writing workouts that are challenging, engaging, and different
- Making sure everyone has fun!
- Fostering camaraderie and good times among the team.

Sadly, for all of this, most of us coaches get paid about $8 - $12 an hour, so you typically get what you pay for. I do it 'cuz I love it.

Can you train adequately for an Ironman without a Masters group? Absolutely. I've got 50 swim workouts, mostly aimed at triathletes, up on my blog for starters. But if you can find a good Masters group, you'll get invaluable coaching, get pushed to swim harder and faster than you ever could on your own, and will enjoy the camaraderie that comes along with it. If not, buckle down by yourself and don't waste your time with a chaotic group that doesn't help your swim mojo.

[quote=snail_male]I need help figuring out how to like swim training more. At its best, swimming is as cool as it comes. On a longer swim - typically, for me, this just applies to OWS - there are those zen-like moments where I can really feel like I am in the groove & soaring through the water (even if it's just barely under 2:00/100m) and it is a great feeling. I like that, except it happens pretty rarely, and just about never when training. This is frustrating, because I am almost always happy when I anticipate, execute, and recall just about every run and ride that I have.[/quote]

My .02 is that the way to enjoy swimming more is to become proficient at it. Not meaning to be blunt, but at 2:00/100m, this may be the biggest reason you don't enjoy swimming (besides the rest of the hassle of getting to the pool, etc.) From my own experience, I hated running for years. One of the reasons was that I truly sucked at it. Taking the Chi Running course, working on barefoot strides, cadence, etc. and doing the work to become a more proficient runner also vastly increased my enjoyment of running. Although I am not fast by runner's standards, I am also out of the plodding ballpark and into the 8-ish minute mile zone in a tri which enables me to enjoy it. I'm betting that if I got even better at running, I'd like it even more. On those few runs when I feel like it's truly clicking, I love it.

There's no doubt that swimming is more of a hassle than either running or biking, since you have to actually get yourself to a body of water, often one that other people are using simultaneously. Pool swimming is more akin to track workouts than it is to just running. OWS is more like that just running or just biking feeling, although of course you still have to GET to a lake, ocean, etc.

[quote=snail_male]Almost every "fish" I have ever come upon maintains that I need to do this at least five or more days/week if I am going to acquire that mystical "feel" for the water and see real improvement. [/quote]

Well, this fish says otherwise. In fact, I'd say the opposite. In swimming, technique is everything. Simply putting in time and yards without technique instruction of some kind rarely yields improvements. Practicing the same poor technique day in and day out without improvement is the definition of frustration and boredom. I could probably do more for your stroke in 30 minutes a week than you could do with 5 days a week of lap swimming.

I don't disagree with your premise that the ROI on swim training as far as minutes gained in a triathlon is huge. BUT, there's ways to improve on that ROI and stroke coaching is definitely your best bang for your time buck. If you don't have access to a good coach, don't forget I have a standing offer of free video coaching to regular TriFuelers.

I also completely agree with Jarhead that Swim ROI isn't just seen in the area of better swim times. For one thing, the strength and flexibility in feet, ankles, shins, knees, hips, and core that you gain with a good swim regimen have huge benefits in the other sports, especially in the area of injury prevention, not to mention in overall health and well-being. Swimming is the single sport that improves your life expectancy above all others as well. Something like five years above all the other sports that were studied.

your experience does not do any justice to the sport. not only do we have to contend with poor pool facilites etc but if we move to the open water then jaws becomes an issue. i am extremely lucky in that i swim with a fantastic group and coach who is not only an highly experienced open water swimmer but treats all swimmers alike. in conjunction with this i have at least a dozen public 50m pools within my area that i can swim at. some are better than others but i can always get a decent swim in. it is a shame that this cannot be the same for everybody ! for you i would recommend getting some swim workouts from ironmom and go it alone until you find a group that is more focused and even better if it is made up of triathletes !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvXF2ZB4aWQ

@ Snailmail, In a nutshell, the above link is what learning how to swim is all about. A feel for the water, and an awareness of what your body is doing in the water, is all about stimulating muscle/nerves to engage and sense the water around you. Right now, if you are struggling to swim, and not enjoy swimming, you are the baby above. You may know what to do, you may see what you need to do, but your body ain't letting it happen.

Most master's swim programs won't help you. They are a joke. Minimal concentration on technique, and just a social get some laps in attitude. They aren't all like this, it all depends on the coach and the culture, but for the most part they are hard to find.

If you talk with 5 different people about your stroke, you'll get 5 different answers. That is frustrating. Good, solid, sound advice to fix YOUR swimming issues is hard to find. People think by doing some fingertips 50's will fix everything.......oy vey

Just to plug her free service. I sent some video to tri_mom, and I'm faster already!!!! It is pretty easy to get video, download it, and share it. If you have any questions about how to do this email me directly, vincent.johnson@rsu35.org.

Under water footage has become a bit easier to get over the past few years. I use a GoPro Hero cam, which runs about 150-2. They are about to come out with a new version, so hopefully the old version, which is go, get cheaper. You can get a suction cup mount. I just attach it to the side of the pool, swim by it a couple of times, and then I got my shots to use. For months I just used my iphone to get above water footage, again it does the trick

A lot of interesting comments about masters swimming. Sounds like anyone would love to be a part of Ironmom's masters group. That sounds like the ideal masters group.

I agree and disagree with some things being said. When I joined my master's group last year, I was an over 2:00/100m. I had only been swimming for 4 years and was completely self taught. I couldn't do any of the strokes, except freestyle. Did I enjoy it? Well, yes and no. I was the weakest swimmer in the group and was always struggling to keep up. I was always the last person to finish any set. I always felt like I was holding the group up. Realistically it probably bothered me more than anyone else. I came to every class though, and eventually the coach would write a flexible workout, so I could at least participate. It is true that I am the only beginner (new to swimming) that has every stayed with the group. Most people drop out. There are some really advanced swimmers with the club who have also dropped out of the masters group, but I think they have the knowledge and experience to write their own workouts. I wasn't really capable of doing that last year, most free swim workouts for master's are too advanced for me to follow.

I think spending that year with the master's group has given me the following things:

- knowledge of swimming, and how to design workouts to match my ability level.
-roll model (I have learned a lot from watching better swimmers, during lane swim, I am usually the most advanced swimmer in the pool)
-interest (i find OWS to be boring, ie. 2K in a lake is pretty boring compared to doing a pool workout)
-the opportunity to work on different strokes. I don't do butterfly or backstroke in open water.
-the opportunity to work on drills, which I don't do in OW.
-more challenging environment. (I wear a wetsuit in open water, and I find it easier)
-inspiration. I like meeting other people who have an interest in swimming and are just as dedicated as I am.

Having said all that though, if you are just as happy to get your swimming workouts in during regular lane swim then I would just do that. The only advantage to a master's group is access to a coach and camaraderie. I go and do lane swim, but I honestly prefer swimming with my masters group.

@snailmale. I am not sure exactly what ironmom means about why you might not enjoy it at 2:00m/100m. But if it is a speed thing, I am not convinced that just because you are slow you can't enjoy being a part of master's group. I was at a YMCA branch in Markham this summer and I wasn't prepared for what I experienced when I got there at 5:30am in the morning. I showed up for lane swim at 6:00am and there were at least 40 people in the pool already. I am not sure what is going on in the city, but they need to open up more time for lane swimming. I don't think a serious swimmer can train with that many people in the pool. For example my coach has me working on a set right now, where I have to swim 10 x 40m on a pace time of 45s. On a good day, I can do it no problem but on a not so good day, sometimes I can't make the whole 10. This is because I basically have to come into the wall within 40s and leave 5 seconds later, sometimes I come in at 43s...then 41s...44s, etc. You get the picture, I wouldn't be able to make this set in a busy pool. The set is designed to be just aggressive enough to challenge my skills.

Maybe if enough people complain about the busy lane swimming conditions, they will make some changes to their pool hours. Or maybe they will open up another branch.

@vjohnson: I swim about 1:48 per hundred, and am really working hard to develop my stroke mechanics. I definitely feel like the baby in the video you posted . . . I identified with the video so much that it made me laugh out loud.

--Richard

[quote=hamlet_cat]
@snailmale. I am not sure exactly what ironmom means about why you might not enjoy it at 2:00m/100m. [/quote]

I just meant that often if something feels like a struggle, it is not enjoyable. Many slower swimmers find that they tire out easily, because they are expending lots of energy in moving water inefficiently. They may find it difficult to breathe comfortably while swimming because of poor body position. Compared to swimmers around them, they are working twice as hard for half of the payback. When every lap feels like a thrash-fest where you can't get your breath, that can make swimming very unenjoyable. I've heard many many times from people who say "now that I can swim better, I like swimming so much more!"

Now that might not be the case for SnailMale, but I've heard it said often enough that I think it is so for many people.

[quote=vjohnson]
Under water footage has become a bit easier to get over the past few years. I use a GoPro Hero cam, which runs about 150-2. They are about to come out with a new version, so hopefully the old version, which is go, get cheaper. You can get a suction cup mount. I just attach it to the side of the pool, swim by it a couple of times, and then I got my shots to use. [/quote]

I was wondering how you got the underwater video! Where did you get the suction cup mount and what does it look like? I have a Fuji UW camera that does video and I would love to be able to stick it to the side of the pool!

can you improve swimming alone? Sure!

one good way to improve your pace (away from coaching) is to progressively shorten your rest time between intervals & sets
or
to do intervals on times that INCLUDE your rest time - over time, shorten the interval time as your rest times improve

as said above, masters swimming can keep you motivated by: setting a goal of moving up a lane; or just providing interesting workouts; or finding like-minded friends to swim with (maybe just swimmers but not necessarily IMers)

@Ironmom, GoPro Hero Cams have tons of attachments. One of them is the suction cup mounthttp://www.pilotshop.nl/contents/media/l_go-pro-suction-11.jpg.

It doesn't work on tiles, but my pool is outlined with a metal gutter, so it attaches to that. Not sure if you how it would attach to other camera types. I also have an extendable rod, that I use when filming others. I just walk on the deck with them as they swim.

@vjohnson or ironmom. This might be a lot to ask but could you post a video of an amateur swimmer on youtube and give your commentary on what they could do to improve their swimming technique, based on the video and then send us the link. I think that would be really helpful. I find watching someone analyse the pros isn't that helpful, because the technique of the pros always looks perfect to me. If it is too much to ask, then don't worry about. This isn't even my thread! 8)

[quote=Ironmom][quote=hamlet_cat]
@snailmale. I am not sure exactly what ironmom means about why you might not enjoy it at 2:00m/100m. [/quote]

I just meant that often if something feels like a struggle, it is not enjoyable. Many slower swimmers find that they tire out easily, because they are expending lots of energy in moving water inefficiently. They may find it difficult to breathe comfortably while swimming because of poor body position. Compared to swimmers around them, they are working twice as hard for half of the payback. When every lap feels like a thrash-fest where you can't get your breath, that can make swimming very unenjoyable. I've heard many many times from people who say "now that I can swim better, I like swimming so much more!"

Now that might not be the case for SnailMale, but I've heard it said often enough that I think it is so for many people.
[/quote]

This is interesting that you pointed this out because I think this is a problem. I think people only stay involved in something, when they are naturally good at it. Ie. do something when it is a strength. I have been with my masters swim program for 1.5 years and our program is based on 3 terms per year. And every term we get a few new people who are fairly new to swimming and they drop out of the masters program within a couple of weeks. We get the odd person who is an advanced swimmer (ie. with a previous swimming background) and they usually stay. So what ends up happening is we get a group composed of only advanced swimmers. This makes it a struggle for people who aren't as fast, to keep up and/or get anything out of the program. I don't know what the solution to this is, sounds like your club has many options for this type of swimmer, but at my club there isn't any, other than lane swim.

I think when people feel "slow," even if they aren't in fact slow, (2:00min/100m actually isn't that slow in many of the races I have been in) then they never get to that place where they have the opportunity to move up to being an elite swimmer. Which I think happens when you are swimming with people who are much better, and being coached by someone who coaches elite swimmers. Just some food for thought. At some point you have to make the decision to stick with it, no matter how painful it is from a self esteem perspective.

When I was growing up, Masters was for folks that wanted to continue competing in Swimming. From what I see on whiteboards and posted workout online for Masters programs, it really is STILL geared towards folks that want to swim good 50s to 200s. I've never lived in a town greater than 200K so maybe larger cities have truly tri-centric Masters programs BUT I believe US Swimming / Masters Swimming folks saw the $$$$$ in triathlon and started campaigning for triatlon folks. The two styles of swimming are completely disassociated. I'm a perfect example of a good sprinter that doesn't have the talent transfered to triathon on the swim. I'm starting to believe that doing mile repeats (with less interval work) may be more beneficial. Now I just have to find a way to keep my sanity in the monotony.

If you need help with your form (and you have money to blow), try to get a coach to give you personal lessons. In the grand scheme of things, swimming doesn't matter for s*&! based on the way triathlon is organized. Just find a way to feel fresh coming out of the water (thus my reference to mile repeats).

Just my evolving opinion.

http://www.screencast.com/users/CoachVJ/folders/trifuel/media/93f454d2-e...

Don't know if this will work, we'll find out!!

http://www.screencast.com/t/4Iftae8Rd

Ignore last one, maybe this one?

@Triton, come up seconds short of Kona, then tell me swimming don't mean %$ in a tri!!! :)

I know what you mean though, the time investment vs. gains in overall race time improvement, etc. And I think that is the root of the issue, people get so bent on getting yardage in (treat it like cycling/running), when they could actually make huge gains, by just swimming less, and just swimming better.

[quote=vjohnson]@Ironmom, I also have an extendable rod, that I use when filming others. .[/quote]

hmmmmmm????

@jarhead, only you would pick up on that. Too funny, I can't believe that is stuck in cyberspace for ever, classic.

[quote=vjohnson]http://www.screencast.com/t/4Iftae8Rd

Ignore last one, maybe this one?[/quote]

That's great. Thank a lot, I found that really helpful. I am just wondering about something. I don't really know enough about swimming technique, to really understand the technical aspects of the perfect swimming form. But I know in skiing for example, when we are trying to teach good balance, instead of explaining the technical details we will give a drill along with a reasonably good explanation of what the drill is supposed to help promote. I really have no idea if my balance is good in swimming, but are there some drills that can be done that I can work on that will promote good balance? I find the one arm drill a bit challenging because I struggle with the sinking. Is there anything else you find good?

Duathlons...

@hamlet cat - if you are sinking doing the one arm drill then increase the strike or turnover rate of your arm. also make sure you have flippers/swim fins on. i did a video analysis at swim smooth 2 years ago and i swim once a week with this group. i am doing the video analysis again tomorrow and i am going to post a blog comparing the two and what paul had to say each time. if you are interested i will let you know how it goes and you can get an idea of what is involved. and i am not a great swimmer so lots of things to comment on !!!

@jenez world. The sinking is a real problem with me because I am really hip heavy. It is a lot more pronounced on me than a normal triathlete. I increase the turnover as much as possible but it still doesn't work, I end up flopping around like a fish out of water just to try to stay afloat and the drill has no effect. The fins would help a lot with the buoyancy though, thanks.

[quote=Anton]Duathlons...
[/quote]
... are for training, or for people who only aspire to being 2/3s of a multisport athlete :-)

If you're worried about training for an Ironman swim, spend the money on a kick-boxing class instead...I'm kidding.

Honestly, my .02....Skip the masters class unless it is focused on long distance swimming and you have a good instructor. Instead, get someone to film you above and below water like vjohnson said. I can't tell you how important it is to see yourself swim. Get some contsructive feedback, specifically on what you're doing wrong and drills you should focus on. Then, start and finish every workout with those drills. Do them perfectly every time. Don't worry about speed. Then do your workout. A month or 2 later, go back to said instructor, and repeat. Hopefully your technique will be better, and you can then move on to more fine tuning, and eventually build fitness.

Here's my before/after from last year:
http://www.pingjeffgreene.com/archive/2011/02/learning-how-to-swim-faste...

I try to do this 2x per year. It never hurts to keep going back. Hope this helps. Good luck!

@hamlet_cat. This is tough to answer, since I can't see what your issue is. Balance/sinking feeling can be due to a number of things. Most balance is lost when you are on your side. When you rotate to the side, and breath, most likely you are pushing down on the water, thus causing your feet to drop. So you arm/hand position and motion is causing that sinking feeling, not your hips. When ever you can, kick on your side, with one are out in front (or if you are up for a challenge, with both arms at your side). DON'T balance your self with your arm/hand. Try to find your balance with you you shoulder/chest, and keep your head low. Your head/chest are full of hot air!!! Which is buoyant, if you press down on this buoyancy it will cause your hips and legs to raise.

Once challenging drill is to push off, kicking face down in the water, arms at side. Take come kicks, then rotate the body to breath, and hold it there on your side. At first you will sink like a stone, but over time you will start to find some balance within your chest/shoulders.

It is kind of a chicken or the egg thing, I've tried to balance people first, then work on the stroke up front, and I've worked on the stroke up front first then worried about the hips and legs. From my experience, and I 'm wondering how others feel, but it seems once the front end of the stroke is solid, and there is a sound acceleration at the back end, the rest of the body falls into line.

I'm sure for skiers, one of the hard parts is learning while you are going so slow. The faster I go skiing the easier it is to move and utilize my body. Once you get the water moving, and you are moving, the rhythm of the body line and position/rotation just falls into play. Not 100% sure on this, but it is something I've been thinking about more, and working with people on, and it seems to provide some better results.

jarhead, Ironmom, vj, hamlet_cat, everyone - thank you so much for the [i]very[/i] helpful guidance & inspiration. See?! That's why I am on Trifuel... you folks rock!

Ironmom, I'm not one for new year's resolutions, but in this case I will commit to trying to get some underwater footage to take you up on your offer of some video analysis; I am guessing I'll give you lots of rich material to work with!

vjohnson - Just when I thought there couldn't be any more reasons to be envious of your prowess, I now find I may need to have an extendable rod. I was always suspicious of this since high school... ;)
(looks like you were right... up there in cyberspace forever!)

jenez_world: at least a dozen 50m pools around you?! Wow...

2012 will be a year I try to swim smarter/better - and not just farther - in the pursuit of that "zone" I want to be in. And I have until mid-August (IMMT) to get there.
Thanks again!

BTW, Costco has a good deal on an UW camera, the Fuji FinePix XP20, for under $149, bundled with a card and some other stuff. This is the camera I have and it works great, nothing fancy but does awesome UW video.

[quote=Ironmom]BTW, Costco has a good deal on an UW camera, the Fuji FinePix XP20, for under $149, bundled with a card and some other stuff. This is the camera I have and it works great, nothing fancy but does awesome UW video.[/quote]
[IMG]http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu178/snail_male/thumbsUp.jpg[/IMG]
I'm on it.

[i]Whoa[/i]. Wait a minute - that would mean I have no more excuses...

@hamlet cat - i have posted a link to the video at the bottom of my recent post - i swim like a crab. it is 28 mins but included is a perfect example of how to do the one arm or what we/i call the unco drill.

[quote=jenez_world]@hamlet cat - i have posted a link to the video at the bottom of my recent post - i swim like a crab. it is 28 mins but included is a perfect example of how to do the one arm or what we/i call the unco drill.[/quote]

Watched the whole video which was really good. I loved the video tool he used and how he was able to compare and draw lines and angles, it really helped make his points. He hit on a lot of what I would have said if I had watched that UW video.

I'm terribly curious though if he's ever talked with you about kick timing. That seems like it's at the heart of everything that's going on in your stroke. I can expound on that if you want more info about what I'm talking about, but I didn't know if he'd mentioned it yet. Every coach approaches things differently.

@ironmom - paul refers to me as a kicktastic swimmer type (see the site for details). i kick too much. more from the knee rather than the hips. i have a range of drills that he has given me to work on. during squad sessions it always becomes quite obvious as i become much slower when using a pool buoy and i sink with a band only (yep - a drowned crab). i appreciate any assistance and help so i would love to hear your thoughts.

@ironmom, the system he was using is called objectus video. I picked up on the quality of it as well, and figured it would be super expensive, like any other coaching software. I looked into it, and they have two downloads, one for 59.00, and the other for 99.00. There is demo model to use, kind of sucks, since it says DEMO in big letters on the video screen. But compared to most coaching platforms, that are 1,000.00, 59.00 is easier to deal with.

I don't have the time right now, but it's not so much the quality of kicking I was looking at as the timing. If you don't mind, I'll put up a screenshot from the video and show you exactly what I mean. Essentially, you're kicking with the left leg when you should be kicking with the right and vice versa. This is throwing your entire body rotation off, causing an over-rotation to each side and your torso and hips to be in entirely the wrong place, and incidentally causing you to lean on that arm in front of you. I think it's the foundation of your problems, and attempting to fix the arm stuff without rebuilding that foundation might prove pretty fruitless. That's why I was curious if he mentioned it.

The whole "crab" look is based on this mis-timed kick with the wrong parts of your body going downwards at the wrong time. I think a lot of stuff will fall back together if you can get this changed. But that's just my .02.

Vinny, thanks for looking that up. That is very reasonable, I think I might spring for it!

@jenezworld. Thanks, I will go on your blog after I go xmas shopping and take a look at what you are talking about. I have the opposite problem, I am super fast with a pull buoy. Swimming is easy with it, but as soon as I take it away, swimming becomes difficult. I also also find that the same is true when I swim in a wetsuit. I just assumed that it was a buoyancy issue, I am built like a pear. Heavy hips core and thighs, but relatively small arms/upper body. I have tried pushing my head down but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

@vjohnson. I'm going to try those exercises next time I am in the pool. I think those are going to help me a lot.

@snailmale. If you buy that camera, let me know. Maybe we should get together and do a swim session!