I'm really struggling to see the purpose in those two drills, unless it's to teach you how NOT to swim. Most fit people (with reasonably low bodyfat) will sink without kicking. I don't care how much you engage your core.

It's entirely true that you could have balance issues and core issues, but IMHO neither of these drills addresses these, nor helps you to overcome them.

The purpose of the first drill, is to increase turnover. You should turnover as quick as possible, so the legs don't sink. Pool swimming, and open water swimming are very different. A quick turnover is essential for open water swimming. Being long and strong, is not good for open water swimming. Pool swimming coaches and open water swimming coaches aren't the same in their approach.

Legs should not sink. They should be right behind your hips, not below them.

That second drill, is one I never heard off before. Not sure. Sounds like it is trying to get your hips and legs higher in the water, as you turn over. This isn't always due to balance/core strength, but low legs are do to the fact people catch the water and push down on it first, instead of pulling on the water immediately.

For every action there is a equal reaction. So if you push down, your head goes up, if your head goes up your feet go down. Low feet/sinking are more of a function of a crappy catch, not balance. If you push/pull water in the right direction ALL of the time (which is towards the feet, not towards the bottom of the pool) then your feet and hips will follow.

[quote=vjohnson]The purpose of the first drill, is to increase turnover. You should turnover as quick as possible, so the legs don't sink. Pool swimming, and open water swimming are very different. A quick turnover is essential for open water swimming. Being long and strong, is not good for open water swimming. Pool swimming coaches and open water swimming coaches aren't the same in their approach.[/quote]

Have to respectfully disagree on this one. First of all, most triathletes suffer from churn, lack of glide, poor body position, and moving water in the wrong directions more than poor turnover rates, so having them work on turnover when their technique is not good in the first place is probably useless.

But beside that point, the turnover in pool vs. open water swimming is similar for distance swimming.

For instance, in this video of the Olympic 1500 m freestyle race, I count turnovers of around 87 - 91 per :60 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLtYG97egI

In this video of the 10k Open water championships, I count turnovers hovering right around 88 - 93. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39uD1la895s

There is a difference of maybe 1 - 2 strokes per minute, but that's fairly negligible. Additionally, in my experience, most triathletes don't glide enough to start with, so they aren't even at the place where they need to think about reducing their glide for the open water.

I coach my Master's team through the competitive indoor season, and then through the 5k and 10k open water season, and this year through our epic 6.4 m Crater Lake swim. I honestly have never had them work on faster turnover. Maybe if they were at the elite level where all other things were already amazingly good it might be necessary, but I would never assign this leg-sinking drill. That's just my .02.

[quote=vjohnson] Legs should not sink. They should be right behind your hips, not below them. Sounds like it is trying to get your hips and legs higher in the water, as you turn over. This isn't always due to balance/core strength, but low legs are do to the fact people catch the water and push down on it first, instead of pulling on the water immediately. [/quote]

This I totally agree with, and most people do this to some extent (pushing down on the water)

[quote=vjohnson] Low feet/sinking are more of a function of a crappy catch, not balance. If you push/pull water in the right direction ALL of the time (which is towards the feet, not towards the bottom of the pool) then your feet and hips will follow.[/quote]

Yes and no. I agree that a crappy catch is the root of many swimming evils, including sinking feet. But it's important to realize that different body types are optimized for different things. Many elite swimmers have proportionally shorter legs (as epitomized by Phelps, aka Torso Man). Many elite runners have longer legs, and they are woefully short on body fat in the leg department. Therefore it will be much much harder for them to achieve balance in the water and their legs will tend to sink, even if their stroke was equivalently good. It also depends heavily on flexibility (shoulder, ankle, etc.) which again elite swimmers have and runners notoriously don't. Without good shoulder flexibility, it's hard to get that high-elbow catch, which sets you up to push backward and not down on water. And hard to achieve the flexible ankle-foot kick, which means their legs either bicycle-kick or kick straight-legged, neither of which will help their balance in the water.

@Ironmom, I agree with your first disagreement. I assumed you would be turning over a quality stroke, at a quicker rate. No sense in turning over crap over and over again, sorry wasn't clear.

What i've noticed from folks from a nonswim background, is in terms of turnover, it is too slow (they took a total immersion class), or its too choppy (quick with no catch). These are the folks that will be in the mix of the crowds, bumpy water, not a lot of room to move, etc. So the environment is not great for nice long glides. So to still be effective in propeling yourself forward you need to shorten up your stroke, and turn it over quick (again, your stroke needs to be quality, before you start turning it over quicker). Think of tri swimming like water polo, it isn't a 1500m for time in a lane by yourself, so don't swim like it is.

Don't sweat the turnover thing, I work with someone 2-3yrs before we start getting into turnover cadence. It is more important to have sound technique, and a glide to actually quicken. As long as a hand is engaged with the water at all times, and the water is going towards your feet at all times, you can't go wrong.

By the way, I tried that one leg out off the water drill this afternoon,that was HARD. I swim with my hips alot, and it really caused me to not twist and stay straight (which you don't want). But I could feel my gluts/lower back, and even my stomach engage to hold my legs up, so I could see why he is doing it, creates an unbalanced situation that you need to adapt to.

[quote=yakn4ever][quote=Ironmom] And hard to achieve the flexible ankle-foot kick, which means their legs either bicycle-kick or kick straight-legged, neither of which will help their balance in the water.[/quote]

I like this, because many times I see bicycle kicking people told to just keep their legs straight.[/quote]

Well, you do need to keep your legs fairly straight, but it only works if your ankles and feet are flexible. Bicycle kicking is the single worst thing you can do, because you actually drag your legs down and backwards (neither is a direction you want to be going!) But straight legs with straight feet and straight ankles just pushes water up and down, not very useful. I tell my swimmers that when they're at work, they're to remove their shoes surreptiously under their desk and work on shin, achilles, ankle, and foot flexibility all day long. Don't know how many of them listen to me though!

[quote=yakn4ever]I am probably messing up my own thread, but why the heck would you need a higher turnover in open water vs. in a pool?[/quote]

When the water is choppy out in front of you, a long glide doesn't get you much. And when you throw a bunch of other swimmers in front of you and all around you, you may not get the chance to reach out into that long gliding stroke. The older gentleman you watched in that race might've had the advantage of being out in front and possibly in smooth water. I've had that happen in many races, especially since early in the morning the lakes can be very glassy. In that case, you can stretch out into a nice smooth gliding rhythm. But in the washing machine or in the chop, you won't get that opportunity.

@vjohnson, I think we're saying the same thing basically, but from a different angle. I do agree that once a quality stroke has been achieved, picking that cadence up to around 90 is key. But so few AG triathletes have a stroke that's good enough, I'd hesitate to recommend it. And you probably know that I'm not a Total Immersion fan anyways, one of the reasons being that the long smooth gliding stroke they show in all their videos is about useless most of the time in a triathlon. But for many other reasons as well (hip over-rotation, etc.), although I think they can be a good foundation to jump off into better swim technique.

I've gotta try that one leg drill next time I go to the pool, just out of curiousity!

I don't really have the experience to contribute anything particularly valuable here, but one thing I can add because I am self taught is that being a good swimmer, depends very much on learning to develop a "feel" for what is fast and efficient. For example you can have a really high turnover and be pulling fast and hard, and yet all you do is tire yourself out, and end up with a slower time than you think. On the other hand you can focus on a slow turnover and an efficient glide, expending much less energy and wind up with the same time. Also sinking legs is minimized by the buoyancy of a wetsuit, so I won't worry about it that much. You can use a pull buoy if you want to focus on stroke efficiency, however eventually you will have to develop a reasonably good kick pattern if you are going to do a lot of pool swimming, the sinking can be annoying when you are working on pull drills.

I was thinking about the high turnover thing this morning in the pool, and counting strokes, and comparing times. I think the mistake people make when we use the work "turnover", is we think of a windmilling/churning like motion. Instead a high turnover, is a quick recovery. Once that hand/elbow exits the water, you try to get it back in the water as quick as possible. In order to do so, your stroke develops more of a snap to it.
I actually see minmal stroke/length differences when I do a higher turnover (15-17/normal, 16-18 high turnover), but my times are quicker.

The more frequently you engage your hands/arms with the water, in an efficient manner, the faster you go, that is what turnover is all about.

I remember doing the foot-out-of-the-water drill at swim practice when I was a kid - - the other thing I would add that it works on is forcing you to keep your head and shoulders down and hips up - - so probably not a bad drill if you are a triathlete who is constantly told that you need to get your hips/legs up.

I don't recommend either of those drills, they are counter-productive. The crossed leg drill doesn't allow you to squeeze your glutes and put your body in the right position. I'm not sure about one leg raised drill, if you're alternating legs with each stroke it's okay but keeping the same leg up - not sure what the point is. I wouldn't be concerned with not being able to do them well.