Constructive comment/criticism:

Try your best to get faster through your runs/efforts (don't be a first mile hero, last mile zero). So lets say you are going to run a long time at a 130-140HR, try to ease your way into a HR of 130, then work your way up to 140 towards the end. You should teach/train the body to get stronger throughout. You don't want to start the bike at your IM, and then get slower throughout the day. It seemed through out your efforts pace declined, could be wrong. This type of work will help you to gain a feel for proper pacing, which comes with time, and practice. When I get through with 3/4 of the bike in an IM, it is go time, so I try to get faster and faster from that point to the end. You let 250 people pass you, then you pass them back.

On your intervals, your determination is strong, but your execution seems to be a bit over estimated. Your intervals need to be consistent in order to build speed.

"I don't feel like I ran this hard enough"- Just looking at the splits and I get the opposite reaction. You seem to have ran this way too hard (see vj's first mile hero comment). That is why you were crashing at the end most likely. If you start at 5:50 pace you should finish at a 5:50 pace. You probably do feel that you didn't run this hard enough in the beginning. This is an indication of endurance stamina IMO.

For your interval sessions- you need to slow it down a bit so that you become consistent and build over time. To figure out where you should be, do an all out 2 min run (give it everything you got). Take that time and multiply by 80%. That should put you where you should be at in your interval sets.

The other factor (endurance stamina) will come with time and more mileage.

These are purely subjective opinions on my part by putting myself in your shoes and examing the stats from that view point.

Hope this helps.

I like interval training on pace. Only exception to this is if you are bouncing off zone 5. If you are bjilding for an october I'M, you should definitely not be doing that, especially this early. Top end speed is great for Sprints and Olys, and FOP long course guys. If your consistency and long run are suffering, dial back the intensity. It is just not necessary unless you are aiming for the podium. Your longer stuff should be taking priority. I am not saying "no intervals" but intervals closer to zone 3 and 4 are better for you at this point.

What plan are you using, and what phase are you in?

I only use a HR monitor if the off season to make sure I don't do anything to hard. For intervals HR training won't work IMO as in your case you are doing 2 min intervals so it takes a while for the HR to build up to a % of max. I could see it working for longer runs though.

I agree with the experts above, better to stay consistent through the intervals at a manageble pace. Forget HR.
Go hit the McMillan calculator, enter a recent 5K or 10K race time, and the calculator will tell you the paces to hit for the various trypes of intervals.
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
Important: Don't cheat and enter the time you WANT to hit in a 5K or 10K, you need to use a current race time or you risk injury.

[quote=J.Michael] I wish I hadn't forgot to set the intervals on my watch, as I don't think my speed was as sporadic as the graph seems. [/quote]

OK. I'm a spreadsheet dork. If you can go to the player, you can back into the splits with just a few formulas. Looks like there was a downward trend. Dude, I'd love to run at that elevation. Probably hot though, eh?

1 - 8:50
2 - 9:16
3 - 9:40
4 - 9:41
5 - 9:52
6 - 9:39
7 - 10:05
8 - 10:13
9 - 9:18
10- 9:40

When I'm doing intervals, I never look at my heartrate, it is a best sustainable effort, so hang on. I build up to redlining in the first repeat, then everything after that is holding on for dear life. You want to find that spot right before you blow up, and just stay there. Over time you will be able to stay there longer, even my first few harder sessions of the year will have a drop off of pace towards the end. Just be careful, if you are gunning for a IM in October, ask yourself what is the point of doing intervals in March? If you have a legit reason then go for it, but IM is about going fast, at a low HR, not going fast, and walking. So think about the system you are going to race at (probably the 130-140HR zone you have for long runs), and stress that system this time of year (especially if this is your first go around). Increase the time in that zone over the next few weeks.
I don't have experience with much "interval" type of work in my IM prep (I only hit that in my race prep phase), so hopefully you get some info from someone that does us it, but just don't do anything today that can ruin your tomorrow, and pushing the interval stuff can cause some issues (if you aren't ready for it). You know yourself better than I, but if you aren't going to race at a HR of 170, why are you training there 5 months out from race day?

HR climbing at the end of the run can be due to a number of things (Temp, water level, RBC concentration, etc, etc). For arguments sake, lets just deal with pace, say your pace for a HR range of 130-140 is 8:00-7:00. The way you run (I use to too), is you spring into to action, feeling strong, feeling loose, trying to get warmed up, but basically cranking out a 6:40 mile for the first one (your HR will average somewhere in that 130-140 zone, BUT the pace doesn't line up, since you started from a stand, HR of 70 to the end of the mile: HR of 139). So at the end of the mile you are at the top of your zone, your body/pace adjust and you drop to 7:15, you find a groove and you adjust and hang on to 7:30's. Then HR shoots up (you built up waste your body can't get rid of fast enough, by going out too fast, HR goes up, but you need to stay in your zone, so pace declines more, now at 8:10's). Your started with a pace faster than your zone range, and ended with a pace slower than your zone range. So you worked the zone in the middle of the run, but the begining was too much stress for what that zone is physiologically able to do, so the you pay the price at the end
This trend will set you up for a long walk at your next IM. The end of the marathon will be spent dealing with the pace you allowed yourself to have in the first 1/2 of the bike.
So instead, work on getting your HR from 70-130 in the first 5-8 minutes, once at 130 try to keep it at 130-134 for 2 miles, then 134-138 for 2 miles, then 138-140 for the last two. See what your pace is.
It seemed like your course is very flat, so you could probably do this. The routes I have are quite hilly, so it is harder to work into a zone, since you never slow on a hill just for the sake of staying in a zone, you don't want to train the body to slow every time there is a hill.

from my understanding, it is quite normal for your HR to rise deeper into a LONG workout even with a perceived constant effort. your body has to work harder to keep the cooling systems working and balanced which makes your heart work harder. this effect is more pronounced in warm weather and less in cooler weather.

Interval HR maxed out ~177
Tempo HR maxed out ~173
Long Run HR maxed out ~167 (159 Avg after Mile 2)

It seems like those ranges are just too tight IMO. I'm not gonna be able to add grand value speaking after vjohnson but looking at the paces mixed with the HR avgerages gives me a feeling that you need put more into the intervals and take it easier on the long runs. Intervals are hard to figure out and it sounds like you just started them so don't over analyze just yet. You can take a ton of time/effort off after you get in a rhythm over several weeks. Currently though you're max HR went down over the last few. You generally wouldn't see that and it's just barely over your tempo runs. You should feel like you're gonna puke on 2-3min intervals.

Just an opinion from the peanut gallery. The other feedback in this thread is from much bigger studs.

Good eye Amphibious Tri, even looking at the average HR values for those runs, they are high.
J.Michael, do you have a resting HR value?
I like messing around with HR values, but using a pace calculator above will get you in a pace zone for efforts too. It just becomes dicy when you are suppose to change them up to keep the stress going, but can be done.

[quote=dkhartung]I agree with the experts above, better to stay consistent through the intervals at a manageble pace. Forget HR.
Go hit the McMillan calculator, enter a recent 5K or 10K race time, and the calculator will tell you the paces to hit for the various trypes of intervals.
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
Important: Don't cheat and enter the time you WANT to hit in a 5K or 10K, you need to use a current race time or you risk injury.[/quote]

+1

Ditch the HRM for workouts, and figure out your proper paces for each zone based on your current fitness. Run training gets pretty simple at that point.

@krazyfranco, I admit, I have no understanding of pace based workouts, so please educate me.
If proper paces for each zone is based on current fitness, how do you measure current fitness? I guess my question about pace based training has always been, how do you know when the body is ready to push the pace? When I use HR pace training, my HR is in a zone, I stress it consistently, and my pace increases within the zone.

@Jmichael, I surprised myself, just came back from a run:
1 7:58 122
2 7:44 136
3 7:18 137
4 7:45 140 (long 3/4 uphill)
5 7:12 142 (had 2x:30 strides)
6 6:57 143 (long 3/4 dowhill)
7 7:17 146
8 7:19 146
9 7:09 146 (short fast downhill)
10 7:20 146 (just up/down street, turn around run, turn around run, waiting for time to expire)

Goal HR range 136-146
Average HR 140
Average Pace 7:23

I was thinking during my run, and this may be complete bullshit, but IM training is a lot like blowing a bubble. You want to build the bubble from the inside, just like you want to build muscle from the inside out (more mitochondria, more surface area on the ETC, more enzymes available for oxidation rxn's, etc, won't bore you with the details). When you run faster than your zone you blow up the bubble, and towards the end of the run/during the body is dealing with structural damaged as opposed to the body trying to just deal with micro (in organelles) damage. So you blow up a bunch of little bubbles, but the run I did above illustrates a slow consistent bubble blowing procedure, it was about to pop towards the end, but I timed it just right. Tonight my body will not deal too much with repairing structural damage, but instead build more rxn specific molecules, that in the long run will allow me to work more efficiently.

That's the beauty of the pace based approach, VJ
"How do you know your current fitness?"
Your pacing is based on a recent race. What's a better gauge than your last 5K or 10K ace effort.

"How do you know when to push the pace up?"
When you've run faster in your last race.

Running until you dry-heave is always a good indicator that you've reached your limit for the time being! ;-)

I must admit, I love the McMillian Calculator. I "eye" it before every workout to remind myself where I'm supposed to be on that particular run. That said, I'm leary of ANYTHING in life where broad generalizations are made and I believe that is a disclaimer on the website. J. Michael seems to be a good example. He's still working on the endurance stamina (as Jarhead pointed out) so those longer runs are beating him up faster than you studs AND the calculator would probably indicate he should be going faster BUT his HR is nearing the "feel" of an interval at the end of the long run. It'd be insane to go faster.

I've never been much for believing in absolutes. There seems like a time within the life cycle of an athlete that HR may be useful and a time when pace is useful. It seems simular to making a jump to a power meter in cycling. All useful info in my opinion.

The 10 mile pace is what McMillian says you should do for a RACE. For training, you would look down at the "Endurance Workouts" table under "Long Runs". Based on your calculated 10 mile Race Pace you indicate above, I'm guessing it's gonna be a 8:50-9:50 pace.

I have a question related to this topic. When you race in a road race, is the goal to run all your splits with the same time or do you go out slow and come back fast. For example:

If you are running a 5K or 3mi and your goal time is 30min, which scenerio do you aim for:

Scenerio A:

mile 1: 10min
Mile 2: 10min
mile 3: 10min.
(total 30min/3mi)

Or Scenerio B:

Mile 1: 11min.
Mile 2: 10min.
Mile 3: 9min.
(total 30min/3mi)

I just picked this example bc the math was easy.

I guarantee you that your hard run are sapping your legs for the longer runs. Build endurance OR speed at one time, not both, at least not aggressively. Personally, if an IM was my A race, I would be training through the sprints, especially with residual fitness from a HIM. Focusing on the speed is hurting your goal for the IM.

If you want to run 7mpm pace in the IM, I have some bad news for you: it is not going to happen this year. Now if that is your goal for NEXT year, I think you might be okay, but even that is pushing it. Your ten mile run is averaging 9:30's. That doesn't translate well to an off the bike marathon. I hate to be realistic, but realism is better than injury and a DNS. Training should be based off what you CAN do, not what you WANT to do.

The McMillian calculator might not be the absolute end all, but in my experience, it is pretty damn spot on. Note it is based on what you CAN do now, your current best time. How do you know it is time to adjust your zones? Two ways. You are either hitting your goals consistently, or you do tests on rest weeks. Either way works, it just depends on how your plans are structured. I like a scaled back week every fourth week. It helps your body and mind recover. Testing is the main focus of the week. You do your test, plug in the new numbers, and have your new targets. testing also gives you concrete, month to month and year to year comparisons to gauge improvement on. If you don't have rest weeks built in, you simply go by the ease or difficulty you have in hitting your goals. If you are doing intervals, start on the high end of the range, and work your way down. Once you can do ALL your intervals on the bottom of the range, it is time to step it up a bit.

[quote=hamlet_cat]I have a question related to this topic. When you race in a road race, is the goal to run all your splits with the same time or do you go out slow and come back fast. For example:

If you are running a 5K or 3mi and your goal time is 30min, which scenerio do you aim for:

Scenerio A:

mile 1: 10min
Mile 2: 10min
mile 3: 10min.
(total 30min/3mi)

Or Scenerio B:

Mile 1: 11min.
Mile 2: 10min.
Mile 3: 9min.
(total 30min/3mi)

I just picked this example bc the math was easy. [/quote]

For me, it depends on the atmosphere and conditions. Crowded race? plan on the easy start and negative split. Small local 5k you can even split. BUT- most people tend to go out hard, and negative splitting helps neutralize that urge. Coach used to tell us "head, feet, heart." Run the first mile controlled, slightly restrained, second mile at goal pace, and third mile all out. I apply this to tri racing as well. Controlled on the swim, faster on the bike, and all out on the run (also trying to HFH within each discipline.) Going out hard is stupid and jeopardizes the rest of your event.

The splits would be more like 10:20, 10, 9:40, though. A whole minute is a bit much.

Sounds like you got a plan. You're a good sport for allowing us tri-nerds dissect you based on three runs. :) You're asking good questions and that's the most important IMO. Good luck in your training my friend.

[quote=J.Michael]

I would contend that any run from which you have not fully recovered is sapping your legs from any run you intend to do? No?
[/quote]

Sure, but some workout have a higher cost than others. Going harder than necessary to achieve your goal doesn't help you here. Ration your efforts.

[quote=J.Michael]
And no I don't intend to run 7mpm in the IM :). I arbitrarily chose that pace at random to enhance the point that you can't run fast for distance until you can run fast at all.
Yes, at the moment my 10mi run was in the 9:30's. I don't know what you mean by "That doesn't translate well to an off the bike marathon."
[/quote]
Hey, you typed the number. How I am I to know you are not insane? ;) I meant to add "off the bike @ 7:00 pace."

[quote=J.Michael]
My ideal goal pace for my 1st IM would be sub 4hrs. Which is roughly 9:15-9:20mi?
I don't see how focusing on running 9:30-9:40's (which I can hold for at least 17-20mi) will help me much.
[/quote]
It doesn't. BUT the times you are trying to push in your interval workouts now are the goal ranges for a 3:00 marathon. Too hard. Judging from your 10k times in your link, your intervals should be at 8:20 at the fastest for now. instead of .3 mile intervals, try running the slower time longer. 2:00 on/ 2:00 off is nice for shorter distances. For distance races, you really should be doing 4:00 to 8:00 intervals. Specific prep for specific events. Running faster does make you faster but running faster than you should leads to you not meeting your goals.

I COULD try to do mile repeats at 5:20 pace, and I might do one or two, but then I would blow up. If I stuck to mile repeats at 5:50, and did them consistently, I would be able to do a lot more quality work, rather than just blowing up. After you pop, you might FEEL like you are doing the best you can, but the actual quality of the work is lower.

1) Intervals:
1 X Week at 20-30 Seconds per mile faster than your 10 K pace (which would be in the neighborhood of 8:00, not starting at 5:59?!?! pace.)

2) Tempo Run:
1 X Week at 15 to 30 seconds per miles SLOWER than 10 K/LT mile pace Distances 1 X 2-4 miles. (tempo at 8:40 pace)

3) Transition Run:
1 X Week at Goal Ironman marathon pace decreasing to Goal all out marathon pace or faster. 4 to 6 Miles

4) Long Run:
2 X Month (build up to 20 -22 miles) 1st Half at 30 seconds SLOWER than goal Ironman Marathon pace., 2nd Half at Goal Ironman marathon pace.
2 X Month (build to 15 to 16 Miles) at Goal Ironman Marathon pace.
(stick to what the numbers recommend. Dont try to go faster than what they recommend, it is a plan for a reason)

I don't want you to think I am trying to roast you. I would simply like to help you to meet your goals. Running is very easy, but people like to mess it all up. Here is one simple rule for running: keep running, and you will get faster. You dont need to push it too hard, trust me. The numbers they are giving you are based on sound science, by people smarter than me. All you have to do is follow the plan. At track and XC practice, we would get yelled if we violated one of the very few things coach was strict on: you do the pace HE assigned. If we were more than five seconds slow OR fast, we would get roasted. It used to puzzle me, but now I understand. It is the overall quality of your workout and plan that will affect your running. Not that one interval, not that one day, even that one week. But over a month of consistent, structured training, you can see some dramatic results.

Your first one or two intervals should feel comfortable, depending on distance. 2:00 really isn't enough time for your HR to increase that much. Focus on pace for interval work. If you are doing longer intervals, by the middle of the set, your HR and pace should overlap correctly, but still focus on pace. The last few always suck. I like HR for distance stuff. But again, pace for the warm up miles. Don't hammer it until you are at target HR. It will get there eventually.

[quote=J.Michael]And please, share your comments / criticism.
I'm pretty think skinned (and headed from time to time).
[/quote]
And also thanks for posting this, because others with even less experience can also learn from the feedback you're getting here...

@Triguy98, thanks bc I have a 10K coming up and I have very little experience in road racing. I am definitely one of those people who goes out too fast. I needed some sort of a strategy for it, thanks for the more accurate numbers too.

You're welcome! 10k is just 3x 2 miles. Head, feet, heart.

Glad you are using the running calc now to determine training paces and efforts. Training becomes much easier after you give up running random paces and/or guessing. The experts already know how fast you need to train and race based on your goals and results. Stick to the numbers that have been proven to work.

Nice job. That looks really good.

Good job, a :15 per mile improvement is a lot!

That is AWESOME!!! The fact that you don't feel beat up, is a great indicator that you are training correctly. Consistency is the key, and keeping the effort level down will allow you to run more often, which in the long term will make you a better runner. The goal is to get faster at not working so hard, keep it up.

Dude, that is fantastic! Exercise science works! ;) great job. Stick with steady consistency, and don't get cocky. You'll surprise yourself!

Dang. I'm gonna be coming to you for advice very soon. Great paces on great efforts. Can't wait to hear the impending fast race reports.

You are going to rock it out in Oct. Great time improvements!

This is a great post and I've followed it for awhile. Would you mind letting me know what your run training looks like for a typical week. I don't need specific pace/time data, just general stuff

Do you do 1 interval run, 1 tempo run, & 1 long run per week? Any specific order it should be in?

I've used the running calculator mentioned above to get my ideal training paces, but don't know how often to do what run when...

I hope to see the improvements you have had, again great job.

Great job. That's some wicked fast improvement. Can't wait to see some fast Fall RRs.

Great job on the continuing improvement! Just keep going at it, and the gains will keep coming!