More rumors and gossip, but still no more evidence (scientific data).
Here's something to think about. If performance enhancing drugs were NOT in the media constantly, how much more or less would amateurs use them? Opening up a whole new can of worms. I'm just more of a fan of facts in stories instead of speculation. My opinion grew when the news talked over and over about the ruined beaches from the oil spill. I've been to the beaches between Mobile, AL, and Pensacola, FL 20+ times and have yet to see the crap. I know it's here, but not as bad as it's portrayed.
Now that I've strayed 2 topics away from the original post, I'll stop. Sorry.
In the case of some of the baseball players and maybe Lance they would just come out and say "yea, I did it...but who didn't?? and seriously how hard were you really trying to stop me?"
[quote=TriSooner]This story is so [s]1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004,[/s] 2005.
Meh.
[quote]
Although I love the graphic, I think there's a fundamental difference between the story today and the gossip in the first part of the decade. The fact that there is a federal prosecutor issuing subpoenas kicks this story to a whole new level. To the best of my knowledge, LA has never testified/sworn under oath to federal/judicial officials about his drug use status (a la Marion Jones) but apparently the US Government sees sufficient merit to pursue the investigation. Maybe it's that dormant lawyer part of me, but I'm interested in the approach that the USG is taking to doping in professional sports.
Maybe I am missing something, but why are they investigating Lance? Seems like a whole lot of wasted time, effort, and taxpayer $ to play the "he said, he said" game. The Balco investigation was based on actual evidence found in the laboratory records and the positive tests of certain athletes. This seems like a witch hunt by a few people that don't like Lance.
Maybe the trial will go something like this:
Prosecution: We have a few former cyclists that swore they never doped (until they got caught and then had no way of earning $ any longer so they want to write a book or two about you and cash in) saying you are a doper.
Lance: I am not a doper nor have I ever tested positive. Where is your evidence?
Up next.....Were the Arby's ladies that asked "Where's the Beef" actually soliciting themselves? Find out next time on crap that's so old that I don't give a hoot.
I REALLY hate it when government agencies get involved in sports. IT'S SPORTS YOU IDIOTS. YOU'RE VALIDATING THEIR "GREATER THAN THE SPORT" STATUS.
When you raise millions of dollars to fight cancer......who cares. That's real. Sports are not real. He's redistributing wealth in a good way. I don't care if he's cheated every day since the day he picked up a bike. That's recreation (i.e........(YOU GOT IT)....NOT REAL).
Why do people try to elevate themselves by bringing others down. It's crazy.
[quote=The Hoff]doesnt the Federal Government have more pressing issues to waste our taxpayer dollars on?[/quote]
Be fair, with today's deficits these aren't exactly "taxpayer dollars" we're talking about. They're dollars we've borrowed from the Chinese.* That's like free money!
[size=9]* that our taxpayer children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have to repay, but that's just a minor detail. [/size]
[quote=PJT][quote=The Hoff]doesnt the Federal Government have more pressing issues to waste our taxpayer dollars on?[/quote]
Be fair, with today's deficits these aren't exactly "taxpayer dollars" we're talking about. They're dollars we've borrowed from the Chinese.* That's like free money!
[size=9]* that our taxpayer children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have to repay, but that's just a minor detail. [/size] [/quote]
Until its time collect, or I should say Repossess portions of the U.S. to China to cover our debt. I wonder how much we can get for for Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi? Or better yet perhaps we end up selling Alaska to China? HA!
[quote=jarhead]
.. Or better yet perhaps we end up selling Alaska to China? HA![/quote]
Isn't saying that a treasonable offense for a marine?
:)
Asking a pro athlete in whose day PEDs were common practice if s/he used is a bit like asking an octagenarian if he used cocaine (an ingredient in Coca-Cola) or smoked cigarettes, those were different times and different moral codes.
Today is today. Let's keep our eyes on the ball.
Sure, I know the lessons of history must be learned or we will keep making the same mistakes, but there is a social cost to tearing down our icons and creating a social vacuum into which experimental values must flow. I accept and endorse learning for mistakes but not the wholesale destruction of an ethos.
Babe Ruth was an alcoholic when [i]everybody[/i] drank , but he was a helluva baseball player.
Canseco & Mark McGwire & Barry Bonds may have juiced (in a league of juicers), but they made baseball fun to watch.
John Matuszak abused drugs his whole career (among men who doped just to play), but he made Oakland football thrilling.
Bjarne Riis doped to keep his job (a practice that killed Tommy Simpson - speed & alcohol) but he didn't think it up himself.
Only self-serving, pious, persecutors, ignorant of the high-pressured, volatile and sometimes senseless world of pro-sports seek to destroy others merely to advance their own careers, and that includes freelance writers who will sling mud just to sell a story.
I don't for one second believe that the top 50 cyclists in the world don't dope. It's that prevelant. Cycling while fun to watch, interesting to follow, is not a clean sport. When you can be pushed by a car, and not need to cycle at all as you take in bottles for all your team mates, you have a huge advantage. Yes its a level playing field because everyone is doing it.......but why can't they all just admit it for crying out loud and let us move on. I don't think there is a top cyclist ever who hasn't been implicated some how some where about drugs.....
[quote=Warrior]it.......but why can't they all just admit it for crying out loud and let us move on. I don't think there is a top cyclist ever who hasn't been implicated some how some where about drugs.....[/quote]
....because they just don't trust each other to be honest!
But, considering the number of different nationalities involved, how could they?
They can't count on loyalty even within their own team!
so no way can they fess up, hope that their rivals will too, and then start fresh.
[quote=PrinceofClydes][quote=Warrior]it.......but why can't they all just admit it for crying out loud and let us move on. I don't think there is a top cyclist ever who hasn't been implicated some how some where about drugs.....[/quote]
....because they just don't trust each other to be honest!
But, considering the number of different nationalities involved, how could they?
They can't count on loyalty even within their own team!
so no way can they fess up, hope that their rivals will too, and then start fresh.
I am at a loss to understand what nationality and trust have in common. There is a guy on here called Garen, whose heritage is Hungarian, and I believe he is American, my heritage is Celtic and I am Irish. I trust him implicity. Is there something wrong with me? Or are you alluding to something else I am missing out on? But frankly if that is your philosophy how can the US justify sending soldiers anywhere in the world and hope to be trusted? Not trying to start a fight here, but just really at a loss to follow your reasoning re trust and loyalty. Fessing up as you call it, has nothing to do with others, it's all to do with self and honour.
I would add that in this specific example the only kind of loyalty that counts is loyalty to self. Being dishonest with oneself is not being loyal. Drugging or replacing blood is cheating. Denying it is dishonourable, dishonest, cheating, and in many domains worse than the actual offence itself. Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude. It's a completely different view point. Take for example Portugese soccer, and as evidence in the recent world cup, Dutch soccer. The aim of these teams is to go out and disrupt the other teams rythm by foul play. Each player commits a serious foul recieves a yellow card but stays on the pitch. The oppoents usually lose their concentration and lose the match. In the example of the world cup final , the oppents managed to keep their concentration and win the match, so the 'cheating' backfired. But it wasn't reported as cheating, just dirty. At the end of the day, it's each to his own, but the Dutch didn't deny the played dirty either, it was their choice. If a figure like Contador or Armstrong could have the balls to come out and admit it, without a judical process, not only would they save their respective nations a ton of money, they might actually become anti-heros, some what like Ollie North for at least trying to tell the truth.
[quote=Warrior] Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude.[/quote]
You need to go back to Christian Morality school and read up on making statements about judging others. Trolling the internet with this divisive garbage speaks lowly of the flag you're waving.
[quote=deepbluex][quote=Warrior] Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude.[/quote]
You need to go back to Christian Morality school and read up on making statements about judging others. Trolling the internet with this divisive garbage speaks lowly of the flag you're waving.[/quote]
+1 Morals are not an exclusive Christian concept. I believe morals might have been around soon after humankind stood upright and developed tribal culture. People relying on other people for safety and survival started the earliest moral codes over 50,000 years ago. Intelligence, guile, aptitude and deception have been around just as long and is not restricted to any race, or religion. Organized religions started many thousands of years later.
Also, The Netherlands, and Portugal are countries with a predominately Christian population so that is a bad example of 'Christian morals'
[quote=beads1985][quote=deepbluex][quote=Warrior] Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude.[/quote]
You need to go back to Christian Morality school and read up on making statements about judging others. Trolling the internet with this divisive garbage speaks lowly of the flag you're waving.[/quote]
+1 Morals are not an exclusive Christian concept. I believe morals might have been around soon after humankind stood upright and developed tribal culture. People relying on other people for safety and survival started the earliest moral codes over 50,000 years ago. Intelligence, guile, aptitude and deception have been around just as long and is not restricted to any race, or religion. Organized religions started many thousands of years later.
Also, The Netherlands, and Portugal are countries with a predominately Christian population so that is a bad example of 'Christian morals'
;-)
[/quote]
How can that be when the earth is only 6000 years old according to the hard line Christians. The idea that morality solely a Christian virtue is hilarious. Almost as hilarious as the concept that Lance didn't do something to enhance his performance. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge LA fan but the facts seem to point that he did something other than just ride his bike alot. Whether or not he actually doped remains to be seen. Either way he'll never admit it as it would destroy the Livestrong foundation and the mystic that is Lance.
Actually if people could reflect about what they read before jumping to conclusions about divisive garbage it would be great, and I am certainly not waving any flag. I am making the point, that in many countries what some people consider cheating , is not at all cheating. Case in point Ireland V France world cup qualifier. Henry handles the ball twice and passes to Gallas, Gallas scores, Ireland out. Case in Point Ronaldo dives all over the place to get other players sent off. Case in Point the Dutch V Spain in world cup final. Dutch had 11 yellow cards. The Christian reference, is to do with how naieve some of us can be in believing the opposition is always honourable. It would seem that America is under the influence of the Christian right, it would also appear that the Christian influence in both England and Ireland is pretty strong in establishing its moral value. Where in Countries like Portugal France and Italy, although Traditionally Catholic, the church has little if any input into the running of the country. So that is what my point about 'outside the Chrisitan influence' was about. States or Countries where christianity is not involved in setting the agenda. Deepbluex if you like I could stick my head in the sand and pretend everyone out there is really nice and honest. Don't worry when I go away I will leave the door unlocked, no one is going to break in are they? Why do people choose to misunderstand and start a fight instead of striving to understand! But from what I have seen of sport, my argument might be perforated but it holds some water for a while at least.
I don't like where this tread is headed......................so I'm gonna threadjack it.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.......MRS. PATSY CLINE
I fall to pieces,
Each time I see you again.
I fall to pieces.
How can I be just your friend?
You want me to act like we've never kissed.
You want me to forget, pretend we've never met.
And I've tried and I've tried, but I haven't yet.
You walk by and I fall to pieces.
I fall to pieces,
Each time someone speaks your name.
I fall to pieces.
Time only adds to the flame.
You tell me to find someone else to love,
Someone who'll love me too, the way you used to do.
But each time I go out with some one new,
You walk by and I fall to pieces.
While not a fan of contemporary country music (it all sounds the same) I love Patsy Cline, Brenda Lee, Mr. Cash....
Nice threadjack/change of subject...
Early in the season this year, a song popped into my head while I was doing a hard set on the trainer. It inspired the following song, and this just seems like just the right time to spring this on us!
(To be sung to the tune of "Here Comes the Rain Again" by the Eurythmics)
"Here comes the Pain Again"
Here comes the pain again
Burning in my legs like a memory
Burning in my lungs like an old emotion...
I want to bike in the open wind
I want to talk like runners do
I want to dive into the ocean
Am I training with you ?
{Refrain}
So baby turn with me…
Like swimmers do
Talk with me…
Like runners do
Ride with me…
Like cyclists do
Here comes the pain again
Playing with my head like a tragedy
Tearing me apart like a super spin
Oooooh
I want to breathe in the open wind
I want to spin in my largest gear
I want to swim out to the buoy
Is it paining you to?
{Refrain }
So baby talk to me…
Like coaches do
Here comes the pain again
Flooding down my core like a memory
Flooding down my lats like a new emotion
(Here he comes again, here she comes again)
I want to hammer in the open wind
I want to notch some negative splits
I want dive at the sound of the cannon
Am I training with you…
[quote=Anton]While not a fan of contemporary country music (it all sounds the same) I love Patsy Cline, Brenda Lee, Mr. Cash....
Nice threadjack/change of subject...[/quote]
Is it possible we were separated at birth? Of course I'm 32.....so it would have had to have been at the cellular stage (pre-embryonic).
Not a fan of "new" country either but love the old stuff.
[quote=gfd]Love Cash and older Willie Nelson. Do not care for much else Country, but oddly I enjoy it when musicians I like put a country spin on things.
That Patsy Cline song played every time I was at my college bar.
And by the way, Lance pulled out of Leadville. I wonder if he will be spectating in Kona this October.[/quote]
Speaking of spectating...
What was MICHAEL PHELPS...yes, that MP doing at IMLP this year?
He was there with his mom and a friend of hers...
They were sitting right next to the Boat House aid station and seemed very nice and approachable...In fact, my wife and I were on soup duty at the station when our can opener broke...we started asking around if anyone had a Swiss Army knife or some such until we could get another opener...The friend of MP's mom lent us his Leatherman. Very Cool.
[quote=cjhoffmn]Early in the season this year, a song popped into my head while I was doing a hard set on the trainer. It inspired the following song, and this just seems like just the right time to spring this on us!
(To be sung to the tune of "Here Comes the Rain Again" by the Eurythmics)
"Here comes the Pain Again"
Here comes the pain again
Burning in my legs like a memory
Burning in my lungs like an old emotion...
I want to bike in the open wind
I want to talk like runners do
I want to dive into the ocean
Am I training with you ?
{Refrain}
So baby turn with me…
Like swimmers do
Talk with me…
Like runners do
Ride with me…
Like cyclists do
Here comes the pain again
Playing with my head like a tragedy
Tearing me apart like a super spin
Oooooh
I want to breathe in the open wind
I want to spin in my largest gear
I want to swim out to the buoy
Is it paining you to?
{Refrain }
So baby talk to me…
Like coaches do
Here comes the pain again
Flooding down my core like a memory
Flooding down my lats like a new emotion
(Here he comes again, here she comes again)
I want to hammer in the open wind
I want to notch some negative splits
I want dive at the sound of the cannon
Am I training with you…
[/quote]
This is pure brilliance and should be copyrighted and made money off of.
+1 great tune, love the Eurythmic and as I read it I had to sing along. I will see if it pops into my head on Sunday whilst racing, however normal form is a song that it hate.
And now he quotes from Nash. What a show off. :)[/quote]
John Forbes? or Stevie "Kid Canada"?
both have beautiful minds. heh.
Warrior, sorry, I was away from my 'puter on the w/e, your query deserves an answer.
There are many factors that contribute to the trust dilemma in pro sports & cycling is no different. Some examples may serve..
Jens Voigt, one of the nicest, most respected pro riders ever, was dissed by his fellow German fans for not helping Ullrich one time even though Jens was riding on a rival team - this pressure weighs on riders and further can be problematic if sponsors who hold part of your paycheque get in the act.
There have been instances where two French riders on different teams have acted together to defeat a third, Spanish, rider, contrary to rules, showing how Nationalities can play a part is sowing mistrust.
There have been allegations in the past of two, supposedly rival, French teams acting to affect the fair racing conditions of the Tour when Lance was domi9nating - leadng to mistrust based on nationalities.
When you have a rider supposedly helping you on your team who doesn't really speak your language well, it is really hard to know if he is committed to you, thus loyalty can be questioned based on Nationality.
to wit:
There is the famous case of Lemond vs Hinault, I quote from the Wikipedia article:
"LeMond rode his first Tour de France in 1984 and finished third, winning the young rider classification. In the 1985 Tour the managers of his La Vie Claire team ordered the 24-year-old LeMond to ride in support of his team captain Bernard Hinault, who was leading the race but suffering from injuries sustained in a crash, instead of riding to win the race. LeMond finished second, 1:42 behind Hinault, who was able to claim his fifth Tour victory. LeMond later asserted in an interview that the team management and his coach Paul Koechli had lied to him during a crucial stage, telling him Hinault was close behind when in fact Hinault lagged by more than three minutes.
A year later in the 1986 Tour, Hinault and LeMond were co-leaders of the La Vie Claire team, with Hinault publicly promising to ride in support of LeMond in gratitude for LeMond's sacrifice in 1985. By stage 12, Hinault had built up a five-minute lead over LeMond, claiming he was trying to draw out LeMond's rivals, but he cracked in the mountains the next day and soon LeMond was in the lead. Although the two crested the Alpe d'Huez together to win the stage in a show of unity, it was clear that Hinault had been riding aggressively against his teammate. LeMond ultimately took the yellow jersey that year but felt betrayed by Hinault."
From the French point of view, they think Lemond betrayed them. Lemond feels differently and I'm sure language and National culture played a key part in their views.
Riders who speak the same language on a team will naturally gravitate towards each other and will sit together at meals or hang out together. It is natural but prone to distrust when you add just just a little paranoia. Then there are perceptions based on national prejudices, Italians hate the Dutch, the French hate the Germans, etc.
My logic is not meant to confuse, I just listen to comments made in the press, watch what happens on the road, plus I have played on many BB teams in European pro leagues, back in the 70s up to 1982 where I saw these things first hand.
There also seems to be a generational difference between what counts as cheating and what is honourable, young tennis players have been surveyed, (Sport magazine C1984) that they felt lying about a line call (where there are no line judges,) is okay if you can get away with it. John Newcombe, Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall all conceded points with grace even when they could have gotten away with it. Then they would crush you with their talent. Modern players, not so much, Justin Henin, Serena come to mind.
Hockey has its share of cheap shot artists who will step outside the rules to defeat an opponent. Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, I could go on. Sport brings out the best and the worst in people it seems.
And now he quotes from Nash. What a show off. :)[/quote]
John Forbes? or Stevie "Kid Canada"?
both have beautiful minds. heh.
PoC[/quote]
I don't see John Nash handling the pick and roll very well and what Steve does is a thing of absurd beauty. Too bad he kept running into Spurs in the playoffs (sometimes quite literally). I've always been a huge Duncan fan living here in Winston-Salem (home of Wake Forest). It's too bad he never got to play a meaningful game for you canucks. Sorry......had to get that shot in. You're one of the few that appreciate b-ball as I do (if I remember correctly) so I have to give you a hard time. :)
Hey POC fantastic response, let me say from my point of view having arrived here 7 years ago, not being able to speak I can see what you are getting at. In my professional life it's apparent too, I am not a native so they will be passing me over again for any benefits, promotions, pay rises etc. So that I get.
The French don't hate the Germans. They have a disregard for the Belgians, the have a chip on their shoulder about the Italians, who think they are the greatest at everything from Engineering to Sex. The problem with that is that the Italians are pretty damn good at a lot of things, and the French are good in the kitchen. From personal experience they could do with a leg up from the Italians, for their fashion, cars, sensuality, and general positive outlook on life. But they don't hate the Germans. The fall out in Europe is way too complicated. The EU as it is known today has been essentially created by Germany and France.
However badly I may have conveyed my argument above my basic point, is this, people cheat. Why the hell won't they just admit it. The refusal to see Armstrong as a drug enhanced speed merchant is admirable, but I kids in Iraq think it's a pity people didn't apply the same rules of innocent until proven guilty to some of the reasons used for starting wars. Granted sugar can be seen as a WMD all the same.
More rumors and gossip, but
More rumors and gossip, but still no more evidence (scientific data).
Here's something to think about. If performance enhancing drugs were NOT in the media constantly, how much more or less would amateurs use them? Opening up a whole new can of worms. I'm just more of a fan of facts in stories instead of speculation. My opinion grew when the news talked over and over about the ruined beaches from the oil spill. I've been to the beaches between Mobile, AL, and Pensacola, FL 20+ times and have yet to see the crap. I know it's here, but not as bad as it's portrayed.
Now that I've strayed 2 topics away from the original post, I'll stop. Sorry.
This story is so 1999, 2000,
This story is so [s]1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004,[/s] 2005.
Meh.
[img=175X150]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dea...
In the case of some of the
In the case of some of the baseball players and maybe Lance they would just come out and say "yea, I did it...but who didn't?? and seriously how hard were you really trying to stop me?"
TriSooner wrote:This story
[quote=TriSooner]This story is so [s]1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004,[/s] 2005.
Meh.
[quote]
Although I love the graphic, I think there's a fundamental difference between the story today and the gossip in the first part of the decade. The fact that there is a federal prosecutor issuing subpoenas kicks this story to a whole new level. To the best of my knowledge, LA has never testified/sworn under oath to federal/judicial officials about his drug use status (a la Marion Jones) but apparently the US Government sees sufficient merit to pursue the investigation. Maybe it's that dormant lawyer part of me, but I'm interested in the approach that the USG is taking to doping in professional sports.
Maybe I am missing
Maybe I am missing something, but why are they investigating Lance? Seems like a whole lot of wasted time, effort, and taxpayer $ to play the "he said, he said" game. The Balco investigation was based on actual evidence found in the laboratory records and the positive tests of certain athletes. This seems like a witch hunt by a few people that don't like Lance.
Maybe the trial will go something like this:
Prosecution: We have a few former cyclists that swore they never doped (until they got caught and then had no way of earning $ any longer so they want to write a book or two about you and cash in) saying you are a doper.
Lance: I am not a doper nor have I ever tested positive. Where is your evidence?
Prosecution: But they say you did.
Lance: Didn't!
Prosecution: Did!
Lance: Didn't!
and on and on and on
doesnt the Federal
doesnt the Federal Government have more pressing issues to waste our taxpayer dollars on?
Up next.....Were the Arby's
Up next.....Were the Arby's ladies that asked "Where's the Beef" actually soliciting themselves? Find out next time on crap that's so old that I don't give a hoot.
I REALLY hate it when government agencies get involved in sports. IT'S SPORTS YOU IDIOTS. YOU'RE VALIDATING THEIR "GREATER THAN THE SPORT" STATUS.
When you raise millions of dollars to fight cancer......who cares. That's real. Sports are not real. He's redistributing wealth in a good way. I don't care if he's cheated every day since the day he picked up a bike. That's recreation (i.e........(YOU GOT IT)....NOT REAL).
Why do people try to elevate themselves by bringing others down. It's crazy.
The Hoff wrote:doesnt the
[quote=The Hoff]doesnt the Federal Government have more pressing issues to waste our taxpayer dollars on?[/quote]
Be fair, with today's deficits these aren't exactly "taxpayer dollars" we're talking about. They're dollars we've borrowed from the Chinese.* That's like free money!
[size=9]* that our taxpayer children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have to repay, but that's just a minor detail. [/size]
PJT wrote:The Hoff
[quote=PJT][quote=The Hoff]doesnt the Federal Government have more pressing issues to waste our taxpayer dollars on?[/quote]
Be fair, with today's deficits these aren't exactly "taxpayer dollars" we're talking about. They're dollars we've borrowed from the Chinese.* That's like free money!
[size=9]* that our taxpayer children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have to repay, but that's just a minor detail. [/size] [/quote]
Until its time collect, or I should say Repossess portions of the U.S. to China to cover our debt. I wonder how much we can get for for Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi? Or better yet perhaps we end up selling Alaska to China? HA!
jarhead wrote: .. Or better
[quote=jarhead]
.. Or better yet perhaps we end up selling Alaska to China? HA![/quote]
Isn't saying that a treasonable offense for a marine?
:)
Asking a pro athlete in whose day PEDs were common practice if s/he used is a bit like asking an octagenarian if he used cocaine (an ingredient in Coca-Cola) or smoked cigarettes, those were different times and different moral codes.
Today is today. Let's keep our eyes on the ball.
Sure, I know the lessons of history must be learned or we will keep making the same mistakes, but there is a social cost to tearing down our icons and creating a social vacuum into which experimental values must flow. I accept and endorse learning for mistakes but not the wholesale destruction of an ethos.
Babe Ruth was an alcoholic when [i]everybody[/i] drank , but he was a helluva baseball player.
Canseco & Mark McGwire & Barry Bonds may have juiced (in a league of juicers), but they made baseball fun to watch.
John Matuszak abused drugs his whole career (among men who doped just to play), but he made Oakland football thrilling.
Bjarne Riis doped to keep his job (a practice that killed Tommy Simpson - speed & alcohol) but he didn't think it up himself.
Only self-serving, pious, persecutors, ignorant of the high-pressured, volatile and sometimes senseless world of pro-sports seek to destroy others merely to advance their own careers, and that includes freelance writers who will sling mud just to sell a story.
PoC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14
I don't for one second
I don't for one second believe that the top 50 cyclists in the world don't dope. It's that prevelant. Cycling while fun to watch, interesting to follow, is not a clean sport. When you can be pushed by a car, and not need to cycle at all as you take in bottles for all your team mates, you have a huge advantage. Yes its a level playing field because everyone is doing it.......but why can't they all just admit it for crying out loud and let us move on. I don't think there is a top cyclist ever who hasn't been implicated some how some where about drugs.....
Warrior wrote:it.......but
[quote=Warrior]it.......but why can't they all just admit it for crying out loud and let us move on. I don't think there is a top cyclist ever who hasn't been implicated some how some where about drugs.....[/quote]
....because they just don't trust each other to be honest!
But, considering the number of different nationalities involved, how could they?
They can't count on loyalty even within their own team!
so no way can they fess up, hope that their rivals will too, and then start fresh.
Basic game theory.
PoC
PrinceofClydes wrote:Warrior
[quote=PrinceofClydes][quote=Warrior]it.......but why can't they all just admit it for crying out loud and let us move on. I don't think there is a top cyclist ever who hasn't been implicated some how some where about drugs.....[/quote]
....because they just don't trust each other to be honest!
But, considering the number of different nationalities involved, how could they?
They can't count on loyalty even within their own team!
so no way can they fess up, hope that their rivals will too, and then start fresh.
Basic game theory.
PoC[/quote]
And now he quotes from Nash. What a show off. :)
I am at a loss to understand
I am at a loss to understand what nationality and trust have in common. There is a guy on here called Garen, whose heritage is Hungarian, and I believe he is American, my heritage is Celtic and I am Irish. I trust him implicity. Is there something wrong with me? Or are you alluding to something else I am missing out on? But frankly if that is your philosophy how can the US justify sending soldiers anywhere in the world and hope to be trusted? Not trying to start a fight here, but just really at a loss to follow your reasoning re trust and loyalty. Fessing up as you call it, has nothing to do with others, it's all to do with self and honour.
I would add that in this
I would add that in this specific example the only kind of loyalty that counts is loyalty to self. Being dishonest with oneself is not being loyal. Drugging or replacing blood is cheating. Denying it is dishonourable, dishonest, cheating, and in many domains worse than the actual offence itself. Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude. It's a completely different view point. Take for example Portugese soccer, and as evidence in the recent world cup, Dutch soccer. The aim of these teams is to go out and disrupt the other teams rythm by foul play. Each player commits a serious foul recieves a yellow card but stays on the pitch. The oppoents usually lose their concentration and lose the match. In the example of the world cup final , the oppents managed to keep their concentration and win the match, so the 'cheating' backfired. But it wasn't reported as cheating, just dirty. At the end of the day, it's each to his own, but the Dutch didn't deny the played dirty either, it was their choice. If a figure like Contador or Armstrong could have the balls to come out and admit it, without a judical process, not only would they save their respective nations a ton of money, they might actually become anti-heros, some what like Ollie North for at least trying to tell the truth.
Warrior wrote: Certainly
[quote=Warrior] Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude.[/quote]
You need to go back to Christian Morality school and read up on making statements about judging others. Trolling the internet with this divisive garbage speaks lowly of the flag you're waving.
Hey - he's Celtic/Irish.
Hey - he's Celtic/Irish. Can't trust what he says!
LOL.
There are times Warrior, when you truly confound the senses.
deepbluex wrote:Warrior
[quote=deepbluex][quote=Warrior] Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude.[/quote]
You need to go back to Christian Morality school and read up on making statements about judging others. Trolling the internet with this divisive garbage speaks lowly of the flag you're waving.[/quote]
+1 Morals are not an exclusive Christian concept. I believe morals might have been around soon after humankind stood upright and developed tribal culture. People relying on other people for safety and survival started the earliest moral codes over 50,000 years ago. Intelligence, guile, aptitude and deception have been around just as long and is not restricted to any race, or religion. Organized religions started many thousands of years later.
Also, The Netherlands, and Portugal are countries with a predominately Christian population so that is a bad example of 'Christian morals'
;-)
Oh...I don't believe in god
Oh...I don't believe in god at all so I'm staying out of this fight.
Anton wrote:Oh...I don't
[quote=Anton]Oh...I don't believe in god at all so I'm staying out of this fight.[/quote]
Anton, that shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude on your part. ;)
beads1985 wrote:deepbluex
[quote=beads1985][quote=deepbluex][quote=Warrior] Certainly those who grow up outside the influence of Christian Morals think that doing anything you can to win, shows intelligence, guile, and aptitude.[/quote]
You need to go back to Christian Morality school and read up on making statements about judging others. Trolling the internet with this divisive garbage speaks lowly of the flag you're waving.[/quote]
+1 Morals are not an exclusive Christian concept. I believe morals might have been around soon after humankind stood upright and developed tribal culture. People relying on other people for safety and survival started the earliest moral codes over 50,000 years ago. Intelligence, guile, aptitude and deception have been around just as long and is not restricted to any race, or religion. Organized religions started many thousands of years later.
Also, The Netherlands, and Portugal are countries with a predominately Christian population so that is a bad example of 'Christian morals'
;-)
[/quote]
How can that be when the earth is only 6000 years old according to the hard line Christians. The idea that morality solely a Christian virtue is hilarious. Almost as hilarious as the concept that Lance didn't do something to enhance his performance. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge LA fan but the facts seem to point that he did something other than just ride his bike alot. Whether or not he actually doped remains to be seen. Either way he'll never admit it as it would destroy the Livestrong foundation and the mystic that is Lance.
Actually if people could
Actually if people could reflect about what they read before jumping to conclusions about divisive garbage it would be great, and I am certainly not waving any flag. I am making the point, that in many countries what some people consider cheating , is not at all cheating. Case in point Ireland V France world cup qualifier. Henry handles the ball twice and passes to Gallas, Gallas scores, Ireland out. Case in Point Ronaldo dives all over the place to get other players sent off. Case in Point the Dutch V Spain in world cup final. Dutch had 11 yellow cards. The Christian reference, is to do with how naieve some of us can be in believing the opposition is always honourable. It would seem that America is under the influence of the Christian right, it would also appear that the Christian influence in both England and Ireland is pretty strong in establishing its moral value. Where in Countries like Portugal France and Italy, although Traditionally Catholic, the church has little if any input into the running of the country. So that is what my point about 'outside the Chrisitan influence' was about. States or Countries where christianity is not involved in setting the agenda. Deepbluex if you like I could stick my head in the sand and pretend everyone out there is really nice and honest. Don't worry when I go away I will leave the door unlocked, no one is going to break in are they? Why do people choose to misunderstand and start a fight instead of striving to understand! But from what I have seen of sport, my argument might be perforated but it holds some water for a while at least.
cjhoffmn wrote:Hey - he's
[quote=cjhoffmn]Hey - he's Celtic/Irish. Can't trust what he says!
LOL.
There are times Warrior, when you truly confound the senses.
[/quote]
:-) Thank the gods for that!
I don't like where this
I don't like where this tread is headed......................so I'm gonna threadjack it.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.......MRS. PATSY CLINE
I fall to pieces,
Each time I see you again.
I fall to pieces.
How can I be just your friend?
You want me to act like we've never kissed.
You want me to forget, pretend we've never met.
And I've tried and I've tried, but I haven't yet.
You walk by and I fall to pieces.
I fall to pieces,
Each time someone speaks your name.
I fall to pieces.
Time only adds to the flame.
You tell me to find someone else to love,
Someone who'll love me too, the way you used to do.
But each time I go out with some one new,
You walk by and I fall to pieces.
You walk by and I fall to pieces.
While not a fan of
While not a fan of contemporary country music (it all sounds the same) I love Patsy Cline, Brenda Lee, Mr. Cash....
Nice threadjack/change of subject...
Early in the season this
Early in the season this year, a song popped into my head while I was doing a hard set on the trainer. It inspired the following song, and this just seems like just the right time to spring this on us!
(To be sung to the tune of "Here Comes the Rain Again" by the Eurythmics)
"Here comes the Pain Again"
Here comes the pain again
Burning in my legs like a memory
Burning in my lungs like an old emotion...
I want to bike in the open wind
I want to talk like runners do
I want to dive into the ocean
Am I training with you ?
{Refrain}
So baby turn with me…
Like swimmers do
Talk with me…
Like runners do
Ride with me…
Like cyclists do
Here comes the pain again
Playing with my head like a tragedy
Tearing me apart like a super spin
Oooooh
I want to breathe in the open wind
I want to spin in my largest gear
I want to swim out to the buoy
Is it paining you to?
{Refrain }
So baby talk to me…
Like coaches do
Here comes the pain again
Flooding down my core like a memory
Flooding down my lats like a new emotion
(Here he comes again, here she comes again)
I want to hammer in the open wind
I want to notch some negative splits
I want dive at the sound of the cannon
Am I training with you…
Anton wrote:While not a fan
[quote=Anton]While not a fan of contemporary country music (it all sounds the same) I love Patsy Cline, Brenda Lee, Mr. Cash....
Nice threadjack/change of subject...[/quote]
Is it possible we were separated at birth? Of course I'm 32.....so it would have had to have been at the cellular stage (pre-embryonic).
Not a fan of "new" country either but love the old stuff.
Love Cash and older Willie
Love Cash and older Willie Nelson. Do not care for much else Country, but oddly I enjoy it when musicians I like put a country spin on things.
That Patsy Cline song played every time I was at my college bar.
And by the way, Lance pulled out of Leadville. I wonder if he will be spectating in Kona this October.
gfd wrote:Love Cash and
[quote=gfd]Love Cash and older Willie Nelson. Do not care for much else Country, but oddly I enjoy it when musicians I like put a country spin on things.
That Patsy Cline song played every time I was at my college bar.
And by the way, Lance pulled out of Leadville. I wonder if he will be spectating in Kona this October.[/quote]
Speaking of spectating...
What was MICHAEL PHELPS...yes, that MP doing at IMLP this year?
He was there with his mom and a friend of hers...
They were sitting right next to the Boat House aid station and seemed very nice and approachable...In fact, my wife and I were on soup duty at the station when our can opener broke...we started asking around if anyone had a Swiss Army knife or some such until we could get another opener...The friend of MP's mom lent us his Leatherman. Very Cool.
cjhoffmn wrote:Early in the
[quote=cjhoffmn]Early in the season this year, a song popped into my head while I was doing a hard set on the trainer. It inspired the following song, and this just seems like just the right time to spring this on us!
(To be sung to the tune of "Here Comes the Rain Again" by the Eurythmics)
"Here comes the Pain Again"
Here comes the pain again
Burning in my legs like a memory
Burning in my lungs like an old emotion...
I want to bike in the open wind
I want to talk like runners do
I want to dive into the ocean
Am I training with you ?
{Refrain}
So baby turn with me…
Like swimmers do
Talk with me…
Like runners do
Ride with me…
Like cyclists do
Here comes the pain again
Playing with my head like a tragedy
Tearing me apart like a super spin
Oooooh
I want to breathe in the open wind
I want to spin in my largest gear
I want to swim out to the buoy
Is it paining you to?
{Refrain }
So baby talk to me…
Like coaches do
Here comes the pain again
Flooding down my core like a memory
Flooding down my lats like a new emotion
(Here he comes again, here she comes again)
I want to hammer in the open wind
I want to notch some negative splits
I want dive at the sound of the cannon
Am I training with you…
[/quote]
This is pure brilliance and should be copyrighted and made money off of.
+1 great tune, love the
+1 great tune, love the Eurythmic and as I read it I had to sing along. I will see if it pops into my head on Sunday whilst racing, however normal form is a song that it hate.
Amphibious Triton wrote: And
[quote=Amphibious Triton]
And now he quotes from Nash. What a show off. :)[/quote]
John Forbes? or Stevie "Kid Canada"?
both have beautiful minds. heh.
Warrior, sorry, I was away from my 'puter on the w/e, your query deserves an answer.
There are many factors that contribute to the trust dilemma in pro sports & cycling is no different. Some examples may serve..
Jens Voigt, one of the nicest, most respected pro riders ever, was dissed by his fellow German fans for not helping Ullrich one time even though Jens was riding on a rival team - this pressure weighs on riders and further can be problematic if sponsors who hold part of your paycheque get in the act.
There have been instances where two French riders on different teams have acted together to defeat a third, Spanish, rider, contrary to rules, showing how Nationalities can play a part is sowing mistrust.
There have been allegations in the past of two, supposedly rival, French teams acting to affect the fair racing conditions of the Tour when Lance was domi9nating - leadng to mistrust based on nationalities.
When you have a rider supposedly helping you on your team who doesn't really speak your language well, it is really hard to know if he is committed to you, thus loyalty can be questioned based on Nationality.
to wit:
There is the famous case of Lemond vs Hinault, I quote from the Wikipedia article:
"LeMond rode his first Tour de France in 1984 and finished third, winning the young rider classification. In the 1985 Tour the managers of his La Vie Claire team ordered the 24-year-old LeMond to ride in support of his team captain Bernard Hinault, who was leading the race but suffering from injuries sustained in a crash, instead of riding to win the race. LeMond finished second, 1:42 behind Hinault, who was able to claim his fifth Tour victory. LeMond later asserted in an interview that the team management and his coach Paul Koechli had lied to him during a crucial stage, telling him Hinault was close behind when in fact Hinault lagged by more than three minutes.
A year later in the 1986 Tour, Hinault and LeMond were co-leaders of the La Vie Claire team, with Hinault publicly promising to ride in support of LeMond in gratitude for LeMond's sacrifice in 1985. By stage 12, Hinault had built up a five-minute lead over LeMond, claiming he was trying to draw out LeMond's rivals, but he cracked in the mountains the next day and soon LeMond was in the lead. Although the two crested the Alpe d'Huez together to win the stage in a show of unity, it was clear that Hinault had been riding aggressively against his teammate. LeMond ultimately took the yellow jersey that year but felt betrayed by Hinault."
From the French point of view, they think Lemond betrayed them. Lemond feels differently and I'm sure language and National culture played a key part in their views.
Riders who speak the same language on a team will naturally gravitate towards each other and will sit together at meals or hang out together. It is natural but prone to distrust when you add just just a little paranoia. Then there are perceptions based on national prejudices, Italians hate the Dutch, the French hate the Germans, etc.
My logic is not meant to confuse, I just listen to comments made in the press, watch what happens on the road, plus I have played on many BB teams in European pro leagues, back in the 70s up to 1982 where I saw these things first hand.
There also seems to be a generational difference between what counts as cheating and what is honourable, young tennis players have been surveyed, (Sport magazine C1984) that they felt lying about a line call (where there are no line judges,) is okay if you can get away with it. John Newcombe, Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall all conceded points with grace even when they could have gotten away with it. Then they would crush you with their talent. Modern players, not so much, Justin Henin, Serena come to mind.
Hockey has its share of cheap shot artists who will step outside the rules to defeat an opponent. Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, I could go on. Sport brings out the best and the worst in people it seems.
PoC
PrinceofClydes
[quote=PrinceofClydes][quote=Amphibious Triton]
And now he quotes from Nash. What a show off. :)[/quote]
John Forbes? or Stevie "Kid Canada"?
both have beautiful minds. heh.
PoC[/quote]
I don't see John Nash handling the pick and roll very well and what Steve does is a thing of absurd beauty. Too bad he kept running into Spurs in the playoffs (sometimes quite literally). I've always been a huge Duncan fan living here in Winston-Salem (home of Wake Forest). It's too bad he never got to play a meaningful game for you canucks. Sorry......had to get that shot in. You're one of the few that appreciate b-ball as I do (if I remember correctly) so I have to give you a hard time. :)
Hey POC fantastic response,
Hey POC fantastic response, let me say from my point of view having arrived here 7 years ago, not being able to speak I can see what you are getting at. In my professional life it's apparent too, I am not a native so they will be passing me over again for any benefits, promotions, pay rises etc. So that I get.
The French don't hate the Germans. They have a disregard for the Belgians, the have a chip on their shoulder about the Italians, who think they are the greatest at everything from Engineering to Sex. The problem with that is that the Italians are pretty damn good at a lot of things, and the French are good in the kitchen. From personal experience they could do with a leg up from the Italians, for their fashion, cars, sensuality, and general positive outlook on life. But they don't hate the Germans. The fall out in Europe is way too complicated. The EU as it is known today has been essentially created by Germany and France.
However badly I may have conveyed my argument above my basic point, is this, people cheat. Why the hell won't they just admit it. The refusal to see Armstrong as a drug enhanced speed merchant is admirable, but I kids in Iraq think it's a pity people didn't apply the same rules of innocent until proven guilty to some of the reasons used for starting wars. Granted sugar can be seen as a WMD all the same.
is this a bot?
is this a bot?