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Zipp 1080 -- significantly better than 404s and 606s?

jkahan's picture
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started by jkahan on September 11, 2009

Hi -- I know this is a topic that has been kicked around a lot , but any advise would be great -- I currently run Zipp 404 tubular in front and Zipp 606 tubular in back -- I'm wondering what the real world advantage of the 1080 would be -- I know this is always a very hard question to answer quanitatively but all opinions appreciated.

thanks

josh

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gdtkona posted 10 weeks ago.

Check the Hed web site. It turns out that BEST is relative to the speed you are traveling and the direction of the wind. Also, the tire rim interface has an enormous impact. For example the Hed Jet with Conti Attak clinchers has better drag numbers than the Sprinter with a tubular! But not if you use a different tire! The Hed web site shows drag vs wind direction and also has a wind direction gauge which can be adjusted for your speed. Cross winds are also a Big factor. In Kona my trispoke and anything over 6cm in the front moves me around too much, 148lbs. GT

TriSooner's picture
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TriSooner posted 10 weeks ago.

Zipp 404 rear (568g) + 606 rear (768g) = 1,336g
Zipp 1080 pair = 1633g

That's nearly a pound heavier (327g) resulting in a 24.47% weight increase. I know, triathletes don't care about weight and only care about aero, but unless you have an aeronautical engineering degree and can explain to me - in Engrish - how a 25% weight increase is a good thing and/or is off-set by supposedly an aero advantage, I'll take the lighter wheels every time.

Previous discussion.

jkahan's picture
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jkahan posted 10 weeks ago.

thanks for the info really appreciated -- I was thinking about the weight issue and I think I am going to have to agree -- rotational weight is a huge factor -- more so I think than the relatively minor differences in performances among all these high end wheel sets.

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xc800runner posted 10 weeks ago.

jkahan wrote:
rotational weight is a huge factor

No, it's not.

Rotational weight matters no more than static, unless you're riding in a crit and need to spin up from 20 to 40 mph coming out of the final corner. And even then the rotational weight only matters if your wheels are build with wet noodles. If they're stiff, and deeper rims tend to be more so since the spokes are shorter, any power you put into the pedal will translate into forward motion. For climbing or rolling along on the flats, 3/4 pound is 3/4 pound, regardless of whether it's in your wheels, your bottles, your aerobars (think 900g 3T ventus vs. Easton Attacks at 400g + 150 g stem), or around your waist. On the flats, aero is king. And on most climbs, it still matters more. And on the ones it doesn't? Are you carrying 2 bottles? Toss one. It'll save you more weight than sticking with your 404/808 set over the faster 1080's.

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derek5 posted 10 weeks ago.

XC runner couldn't have said it better. Most of us are convinced that an aero helmet and carbon wheels are the solution. How many people do you see with an aero helmet on 40 miles into an ironman sitting straight up on their base bar. Things like yoga, flexibility training, proper strength training, proper nutrition are what lead to true gains.

jkahan's picture
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jkahan posted 10 weeks ago.

correct and incorrect-- at constant velocity -- static weight and rotational weight are equal -- however -- during acceleration / hills > 4% grade rotational weight is twice as "important" as static weight -- here's a link that ironically confirms what I am saying but CORRRCTLY concurs with XC800Runner's conclusion: aerodynamics is probably more important for ultradistance events. Thanks for the input -- I've learned a bunch.

http://www.ultracycling.com/equipment/wheels.html

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xc800runner posted 9 weeks ago.

jkahan wrote:
correct and incorrect-- at constant velocity -- static weight and rotational weight are equal -- however -- during acceleration / hills > 4% grade rotational weight is twice as "important" as static weight -- here's a link that ironically confirms what I am saying but CORRRCTLY concurs with XC800Runner's conclusion: aerodynamics is probably more important for ultradistance events. Thanks for the input -- I've learned a bunch.

http://www.ultracycling.com/equipment/wheels.html

This is the argument I don't get. On hills greater than 4% (more commonly noted at 8% before the aerodynamic advantage of the heavier wheel is offset by decreased rim weight) how much accelerating do you expect to be doing? I understand the arguments concerning deceleration of the wheels due to frictional losses at the dead spot of the pedal stroke and the re-acceleration of the rim upon down-stroke. Namely, on a micro scale, the lighter rim is easier to re-accelerate than the heavier one. And this is true. However, the lighter rim also has less rotational inertia, so it's deceleration at the dead spot of your pedal stroke is more than a heavier wheel and you need to accelerate it more to get back up to speed. Also remember that this is on a "micro" scale. If averaged over the course of even a 1/2 mile climb at steady grade, these minute decelerations/accelerations will smooth out to a constant velocity, and as such, you will find that it takes the same power (or energy consumption) to move two bike/rider combinations of equal weight at equal rates of speed, regardless of wheel weight. It is the attacking on climbs where you want a light wheel; where you are rapidly accelerating on a macro scale. And here, you also want a stiff wheel that will not deflect like many of the ultra-light climbing wheels.

For more reading on this, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

There are other explanations out there if you do a search, but the best thing about the analytic cycling link is that you can actually put in values for aero and weight (which you can also find on the net) and see the difference in time saved/distance gained at a specific power.

jkahan's picture
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jkahan posted 9 weeks ago.

luv it -- i'm back to where I began a few years ago -- i think I will just shut up and ride harder:)

x0finalk0's picture
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x0finalk0 posted 7 weeks ago.

sasquatch's picture
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sasquatch posted 7 weeks ago.

Just get a disk cover for your 606 and leave the 404 up front. Your weight increase is about 100g and you will get a increase in aero for only $100. Plus crosswind doesn't really affect your rear wheel much.

I doubt you will see much difference in stiffness between the 404 and the 1080, so that doesn't really apply to your question..

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JfromJacksonHole posted 5 weeks ago.

I so love when XC800 chimes in, always a great read!!!

I'm still in the dust about wheels to get-best suited wheel for me, I'm thinking 404 set with powertap myself.

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grappler posted 4 weeks ago.

Following on from this discussion, I'm running 404 tubular rear and 303 tubular front (both non dimpled) on a P2C. I'm thinking of moving up to a 808 or 1080 wheelset to move up from sprint to HIM distance. I'm a clydsdale which requires a 24+ spoke wheelset. Which wheelset does the forum suggest I consider? I am capable of holding a 33km/h average speed over the 20km sprint distance and above 31km/h for a 40km TT training session on my current race gear mentioned above.

thanks
Angelo

EDIT: Or should I consider a rear disk for triathlon?

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