I think trying a high intensity running program is the only way to answer your question. You have tried the other way and you are already seeing results form some intensity. Dedicate a few months to running weeks that contain speedwork at the track, hill repeats, fartleks, and tempo runs. Plan it out intelligently so you don't burn out or injure yourself. In my experience the hardest form of training is the track workout. It is also the easiest workout to want to skip because of the suffering that goes with it. Nothing can injure you as easily and nothing has produced more results for me. Good luck.

+1 to gfd. Hill repeats also work really well. Good Luck!

Mix it up on the track. There are many different ways to train. Ladders, pyramids, different heart zones, short and fast, long and slightly faster than race pace. etc.

Lots of suggestions for 800s, repeats, track work and such. Dont do that. You REALLY need to focus on muscular endurance, and that is a gradual build. Speed work is fun, but it doesnt do you much good without ME. You have established your base, that's your hamburger bun. Muscular endurance is the hamburger patty. Speed work is the condiments. I doubt you suck ketchup right out of the bottle.

Spend a month doing one tempo run a week mixed in with what you've been doing. A tempo run is a 10 minute warm up, followed by a upper tempo (zone 3) mid portion and a 10 minute cool down. Start at 20 minutes for the tempo and work up by 5 minutes a week from there. After a month of that, you can start doing cruise intervals.

Speed work without the muscular endurance is a good way to not get a whole lot faster, and possibly injured.

I've found that in order to get faster I have to do a lot more speed work at paces faster than I usually ride / run. I found that I didn't get faster gradually by doing long slow distance. I added track workouts, and hard intervals and have found that they are really helping me add speed. It's painful, for sure, and I certainly benefited from almost 2 years of base training before I started doing them. I wouldn't want to do the track workouts I'm doing now without all the base training before hand, that's for sure.

In the last 3 months though, the hard intervals and speed work has made a big difference though in how I feel and my speeds.

I have a friend that is hunting down top 10 spots in most tris he's running. When I was complaining a bit about "all my training, and I'm still not getting faster running" he said "tell me what your track workouts are like." Considering I hadn't even run any... It was tough to answer... I added them and am improving quite a bit.

Hope that helps.

-C

Pete:

Although I haven't strung together a 5K or 10K since I've been pumping up the intensity, I will confess this - In late 2007, my best miles were at about 10 mins a mile. I got to about a 9 min mile best mile run doing LSD. My 5K times in my tris were at about 9:45 a mile, my 10K times were 9:45 to 11min a mile. In about 90% of my runs until this season, I averaged between 9:20 and 9:45 a mile.

I upped my intensity considerably about 4 weeks ago. Last week, I ran a 4x 1600 meter (basically miles) track workout and I ran 7:37 / 7:21 / 7:36 / 7:50 miles. Again, I haven't strung together a race paceish run in a while for distance, but in my bricks and my runs this weekend, I've got that "cruising" feeling at around a 8:15 - 8:30 pace. So I'm feeling like it made a very big difference for me.

-C

I would not limit myself to track workouts in your process to get faster and I think you are right on when you question how running slow will make you faster. You do have to run fast to get fast. But if you run track workouts like a race you will get injured. Getting out each week and building on a tempo run (using a HRM makes it easy to know just how hard you are working) is a great and safe way to build speed and endurance. 1600 repeats, 2000's, and 2400's can also be a safer way then banging out 800's and 400's if only because you will not be tempted to sprint that last 100 to nail a certain time. Add hill repeats that last 1 minute 30 seconds to 2 minutes as well for building strength and endurance. One we haven't talked about is racing, frequently. The only time I was able to run a 17 minute 5K was when I was racing a few times a month over the summer. It translated into a 1/2 mary and marathon PR that fall. There are many different and safe ways to get where you want to go. You have to fins what works for you.

Ya, I like the 1600s, but I think so far I like doing 1000 intervals the best. I'll also note that I built up to them quite a bit, as many have noted, with intensity comes chance for injury. Early on, I did develop a nagging pull in my left hamstring which took some time to heal. In the beginning of higher intensity work, listen to the body and I suggest erring on side of "no injuries."

I agree with the other posts above that it takes some work to find the workouts that work for you, be it track/hill repeats/tempo runs.

Get strong, go fast, go long!

-c

i think the other piece of your running to consider is the frequency

it's just the right time of year to focus on one of the three disciplines

consider running 6x/week...my guess is that this will put a huge margin in your 10:xx/mi pace

So I was coming directly off basically 45 days of working mostly speed work on the run when I commented earlier. As I mentioned, I hadn't strung anything together into a longer run that wasn't anything other than a slowish endurance long run until tonight.

I did an 8 mile run tonight in 68 minutes (8:33/mile) on my normal run (Its hilly too - elev gain and loss of 2,822 on the out and back route). It included 25 min warm up @ 8:31/mile, 30 min Tempo interval at 8:17/mile, and cool down. After 2 years basically of not getting faster, this is truly dramatic difference for me. As I started the tempo section, I managed 10 minutes at an average of 8:00/mile. That is just tremendous for me, and I attribute much of it the speed work I added this year.

If you always run slow, you'll race slow.
When I'm 100% run healthy I stick with 3-4 days of running. One weekend LSD run done at a 140-150hr avg, usually 9 min road pace or 10-10:30 trail pace. One day or tempo intervals lasting 60-90 minutes and one day of track speed/drill workouts. Come race day my paces merge and I end up somewhere in the middle.

I'd try out some of the workouts the peps above listed, all good feedback IMO.

If you only ran 2, and rarely 3 time a week, adding a lot of intensity is a good way to add some injuries... you need a decent base (built over time) before you will benefit from intensity.

And you are seeing results right now because almost any challenge/structured training is a shock to your body, and shocks are what bring improvement.

I love the hamburger analogy by Triguy98. Maybe it's because I believe it. Maybe it's because I don't like a lot of condiments or speedwork. I'll take a double tempo burger please!

Lots of good Trifuel suggestions on what distance to do for speedwork. Don't feel obligated to do them because they work for someone else. Find what you enjoy and do those. Recently I've been doing stride-outs (pickles) after easy runs. I'm only training for an IM, not a 5k/10k, so I can go without a lot of repeats (ketchup) and fartleks (mustard). Maybe I'll add some onions (hills) after my fall events. Sorry, I'll stop with the hamburger comparison.

What are you training for Pete? If you want a 34 min 10k, then check out this article. How to kill a 10k If you want to run a fast marathon/IM, I think doing a tempo or short race every 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 weeks will help more than trackwork.

Remember, 5k and 10k's are training also. You don't need to spend $25 on a race every week, but doing a combination of a 3 or 4 races and tempo runs per month is a good idea. The guy that made up my marathon plan told me to run tempo runs at 6:20 pace. I laughed and told him I wasn't nearly that fast. First tempo run I did surprised myself big time, but my fastest was still a 6:22. The following week I did a 4 mile race and averaged a 6:11. Being around people helps!

The key to running faster is a solid strength and conditioning program with interval work. The long slow miles you are putting in are keeping you from improving your run speed. Long slow distance training causes muscle wasting and over use injuries. Which is why athletes that train long slow distance plateau. Any questions?

[quote=jaycswift]The key to running faster is a solid strength and conditioning program with interval work. The long slow miles you are putting in are keeping you from improving your run speed. Long slow distance training causes muscle wasting and over use injuries. Which is why athletes that train long slow distance plateau. Any questions?[/quote]

Which is why the best runners at almost all distances do MOST of their running at a relatively easy pace? Read Daniels or Noakes books on running. You'll learn alot.

My best two 5k's were at 17:05 and 17:15. Both of these were during my highest volume training, IM training and marathon training, i.e. most of my work was lsd(long STEADY distance) and running 5-6 days/week with only one day at a higher intensity(I've also never seriously trained for a 5K). Any good, well rounded running program should have some higher intensity work, but too many people underestimate the value of consistancy. Start off by just trying to run 5-6 days a week for 30 minutes at a solid pace where you can talk, but just barely. See how you feel in 3-4 weeks.

Here's a start: http://www.coacheseducation.com/endur/jack-daniels-june-00.htm

I tend to follow a program similar to KitKat during the season; one long slow distance run, one good tempo run, then one workout at the track with 400 or 80 repeats. That's about all the running I can handle in season while hitting the other two sports and maintaining some sort of homelife. Through the season I'll increase the length of the tempo runs up to race distance to try and build the muscular endurance.

Of season, I'm going to try and increase the runs to 5x/week, maintain two at a higher intensity, but add more base building.

[quote=Pete L.]Has anyone ever had this "running slow all the time" thing work to get faster? Or know anyone who has?
[/quote]

I think this is a bit misunderstood. It's not about running slow, it's about running at the right intensities. Define slow. It's a vague term, and you need to get into more specific ranges. I mentioned Daniels in my last post and his book is a great place to start. I have found his Vdot charts very accurate for my ranges, and they are fairly easy to get figured out. Then you train at the appropriate ranges. It's sort of like power on a bike. It doesn't matter so much how you feel, just follow the training ranges and you'll be in your optimum zone.

you might also look into run less run faster
the book is worth getting if you're interested in the program (i got it at my library)

i changed speeds following the 5k program

[quote=Pete L.]@dkhartung I feel like the 1 speed + 1 tempo + 1 long is my favorite so far. However, I've never done an ultra structured lower intensity type of program, so for right now, I think I'm better off doing what is working for me. I'll do that until it doesn't work anymore, and look for something new.

@sasquatch you've got me looking into Daniels running formula now, so that's a new thing to look at.

This is a great thread and I appreciate everyone's input. I especially appreciate the warnings about avoiding injury.[/quote]

One thing that has stood out to me from talking to coaches and reading the lit on this is that you have to get a handle on your real volumes, then break down your week. For example during a base phase, 90-95% of your weekly mileage should be at your "Long" Pace. The rest at more like your "marathon pace". As you start to move into more of your pre-race you'll increase your speed work as a percentage of your overall by adding in threshold (tempo)(up to about 10%) first , then interval work(up to about 5%) later. So if you are running 30 miles a week, then you should be running about 3 miles at threshold pace, and additionally about 1.5 miles at Interval pace, with another 15-20%(up to 6 miles) at Marathon pace, and the other 20 or so miles at "long" or easy pace. You'll find the IM and 1/2 IM training programs on this site follow that fairly closely as well. How you fit the running into your week is dependant on your schedule and the rest of your workouts.

[quote=sasquatch][quote=Pete L.]Has anyone ever had this "running slow all the time" thing work to get faster? Or know anyone who has?
[/quote]

I think this is a bit misunderstood. It's not about running slow, it's about running at the right intensities. Define slow.[/quote]

I could not agree more. I would define "slow" as the slowest pace I train at. In 2007, running 8:35 was almost 5k race pace. Over last winter, 8:35 was 15% slower than my marathon race pace (7:10). Going 15% slower than your race pace seems really slow at the time. However, about once a week I was not able to finish my workouts at goal pace. So it's not like I ran slow all the time.

If you are just winging your running program by running hills, tempo, repeats, and what feels like easy days when you feel like it, you are not getting the most of your workouts. If you are too lazy to follow a plan from Daniels or another plan that identifies what pace you should be running, then hire a coach.

Sorry for sounding so mean, but I figure if you're asking the question, or reading this post, you want to get the most of your workouts. Going outside when it's nice outside and just running whatever you want isn't going to get the same results as taking time to determine what pace to run on easy/hard days.

Hi
First post.
I have found consistancy to be the key in running. I have trained for the marathon and to start with I would do a lot of base running which would be considered fairly slow but after a few months of consistant training your pace will increase for same effort. Once you have the base then you can add additional runs. I was running off 6 days a week which would include some doubles which is a way of getting mileage in and time on your feet. After a few months of easy/base running I would add tempo and track runs but found my most important run was the long run. A friend of mine does most of his running at about 8min pace but when he races he seems to be able to pull it out of the bag shown in a recent mara when he averaged 6.20 pace.