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Define Fat.........

% Body Fat, BMI, Waist size.

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I've been lurking for a while now, but I couldn't leave you hanging on this thread.

I usually just run with the pain. And, for clarification, I also have pain everywhere else in my body when I run. I have the same thing with it being painful for the first mile or so. I don't know what it is, maybe that I don't warm enough or something. I've tried doing all kinds of stretching and soaking and what not, but nothing seems to help that much.

So, I don't have cure for the pain, but you can at least run with the comfort of knowing that you're not alone.

Oh, and you're not fat.

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Well.. Based on BMI, my 5'11 frame at 195 lbs puts me right outside the 'obese' bracket. So I guess I am a fat peron too.

My knees don't necessarily hurt at the beginning, they always do between miles 1-2... then it seems to go away. Not sure how to fix it. Could be the extra weight I am carrying.

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Yeah, and a 9 minute mile is not taking it easy if your a fat guy.

You really shouldn't go to the gym rant thread for working definitions, or anything other than a quick laugh for that matter.

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i have bad knees as well. was worse when I was 10-15 lbs heavier. But i would take Omega 3 and Glucosamine supplements and it would help. After about a month of consistent running and consistantly taken the supplements the knee pain would subside.

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No matter what you weigh, running puts a lot of stress on your knees. The more you weigh, the more opportunities there are for knee problems caused by these stresses. When I am overweight and trying to get back into shape, I stick with cycling, swimming, and the stairmaster until I'm close enough to my target weight so that I can limit my chances for injury. I have learned to do this through experience because a few times in the past I have taken up running to get back into shape and then ended up having to stop running after I was finally in shape because my right knee was so sore (a chronic injury originating from my highschool running days long ago). That being said, I can't really say what is the right weight for anyone else. Like most things in this sport, there are lots of tradeoffs to consider when trying to figure out how much abuse our bodies can safely endure.

If your primary goal at the moment is weight loss, my suggestion would be to stick with other cardio excercises that put less stress on your joints, like cycling and swimming, or a cardio machine.

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I consider myself a former fat person --- thanks to triathlon, not anymore. I had pains until I read chi-running and started worrying more about my form than my pace. Similar thought process to running based upon heart rate. Focus on what you can control - form and intensity (HR), and your pace becomes what it becomes. Do this long enough, you will not only not be "fat" but will get faster and should be able to eliminate a lot of the pain. Summarize, always run in good form and do not be hung up on your pace.

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First of all, your sense of irony is killing me, I love it :-)

A couple of things I would try:

- Go to a running store and tell them your issue, see what they say about your shoes - could be a shoe-related issue?? Are your shoes right for your stride (pronate, supinate, neutral, etc.?) Are you replacing them often enough? Do they have enough cushioning for your body size. Heavier runners (whether fat or no) can need a heavier more cushioned shoe.

- You might want to check out the book Chi Running. I switched over to this running style before my first marathon and I credit it with saving my knees. I had a lot of knee pain and wore an ACL brace before using the Chi Running book and DVD, and now I can run long distances with no knee pain.

- Are you doing any weights or other activities to strengthen the supporting muscles around your knees? I've found that both swimming and yoga strengthen smaller supporting muscles, especially the balancing poses in yoga. Weight training can help as well.

- Lastly, are you a generally flexible person? What I've found is that people who have great flexibility often make terrific swimmers but have lots more problems with running. The tendons that hold our joints together tend to be looser and that's not great for stability.

On the original topic of fat and knees, I have a friend who is quite fat and round and she has terrible knees and can't run. One might thing she has terrible knees because she's fat, but she's just an incredibly flexible person - she can do the splits straight out. And her son who is as flexible as she is has bad knees despite the fact that he's 19 and in terrific shape right now. But he already can't run anymore. I wanted to mention this in the original "bad knees=fat" post. Sometimes people have terrible knees and that can contribute to difficulty doing all sorts of exercises which makes for difficulty keeping weight off. It's not always the other way around. I've coached a swimmer before who has such loose joints she has dislocated her arm just by swimming! It makes for a hard time with sports.

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I probably don't qualify as fat, but i don't really qualify as a good runner yet either. But i do know somethin' about fishin' and... [oh sorry!...back on track...]

I have found my aged 37 year old body doesn't respond well to getting up from my computer at work and going for a run. So i've been deliberate about walking for 5:00 prior to starting any run and using the first mile to go as slow as possible and still seem like i'm not walking. Same thing for the last mile. I then end my runs with 5:00 of walking prior to any stretching or anything.

I've been doing this since September as a new routine (along with a 5k running program to rebuild my running from short distances up), and this has helped me eliminate knee and ankle pains I'd been having . I think the essential part of it is going really easy during those early and late parts to make sure your body is not over-straining.

Also, don't push beyond where you body can handle it. If your knees hurt at 8miles for example, think about how you can train to be able to handle that distance. Try intervals that add up to 8mi, but only go tempo pace for 1/2 that total distance: 1.5mi easy, 1.5mi tempo, .5mi easy, 1.5 mi tempo, .5mi easy, 1.5mi tempo, 1 mi easy. Vary the combinations and build up to a complete long run over time.

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No threadjack, but he's good.

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+1 for Glucosamine Chondroitin (which helps to rebuild cartilage and treat arthritis jwillia)

If the pain gets better as you run and not worse, I say warm up easy and work through it. If I have bad knee pain I always stop but if I only ran when my knees felt 100%, I would never run. Only you know your own body. You have to decide what level of discomfort is normal.

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I'm not fat, but the BMI scale used to say I was obese... (6' tall and 33" waist; obese my @$$)

Anywho, after blowing my knee out on a 6' hurdle a while back, running was pretty bad. It was bad before that too but after it was so much worse. Picked up Run Training for Triathletes which is (or similar to) Chi running and I don't have knee pain while running short of 12 miles. (probably 'cuz I don't run that far very often) It also has a section on "achieving ideal race weight" that has some good nutritional/workout information.

That reminds me, I need new sneakers...

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Thanks for piping up, doood. I don't care what Cap'n Mal says about you, I think you're a great guy.

Glad to see you're still sportin' the cape. In spite of what Edna told Mr. Incredible, all good super heroes should have one.

We gonna cross paths this year? Cache Valley, maybe? What's your schedule?

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I'd kick you out myself, but I think I've lost my bouncer credentials.

I think Cache Valley is the same day as the Shark Attack (my son's still too young, but Cap'n Mal's kids will be racing I think). We'll probably try for the Battle at Midway.

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One thing I forgot to mention is running surface. Dirt is much softer than asphalt and concrete is the worst. If you run on sidewalks, you're just asking for trouble. For those of you with concerns about your knees, try to find a place with a smooth trail (often there are trails right next to bike paths that runners have worn in the ground). If you can't find a trail, try running on a highschool track and see if there is any difference in your knee pain. You can also try running on a treadmill as those usually have a lot more give than mother earth. A mix between indoor and outdoor running might be a good way to get some distance in with less less stress on the knees.

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Don't know if anyone is still looking at this thread however 2 thoughts.
If pain is leaving after a mile or so it could well be the endorfins kickinng in and masking the continuing pain so be careful. Secondly I always ice my knees after a run if they have been sore during the workout.
Take care you only get one set of real knees, after that your on to the plastic variety which probably aren't as good for triathlon.

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Yeah, more like B.S.I., amirite?

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I know we've talked about Ibuprophen here before, but I still have questions. I hate taking pills, but my doc insists I take it short term for the inflammation in my knees. 600mg twice per day for several days after a flare up. I am also tempted to take it 20 min. prior to a long run. How much is too much?

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You might try a high quality enzyme formula like Wobenzym instead of ibuprofen. I've used Wobenzym for years (and I'm not a supplement person, it's the only thing I take) and it is great at getting rid of inflammation without the side effects of NSAIDs and the stress on your liver.

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I try not to use any pain medications, and when I do use Motrin, it's usually less than once per day and the dosage is 2x200 mg and taken either after running or in the evening before bed if I have any exercise related soreness like a stiff neck or sore back. I'll look into the Wobenzym...

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My knee pain starts about 4 miles into the run, only on my right leg. My doc thinks there is too much stress on my knee(s) since I was trying to change too many things about my run at the same time. I was experimenting with chi running, switched from Asics to Newtons and started gradually increasing my distances to much longer than I was use to running (prepping for a half mary). She wanted me to back off on the chi and the newtons for now and take the advil for what she described as "a lot of inflammation." I believe her. I just don't like it. So frustrating being out for a nice long run and getting stranded six miles out and having to walk home. Ugh.

By the way, my sister has the identical problem. Same leg, same pain location, same distances. Odd?

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I'd vote for percentage lost too. That's how they do it on Biggest Loser, and if there's one thing I've learned it's that TV's always right.

But, honestly, doing percentage seems to be a pretty fair way of doing it. It seems to put men and women of varying heights and body types on a similar scale.

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I like the plan. The only change I would suggest is to have a graduated payout system in the case of multiple winners. For example, if three people make the 8% goal, but one of them loses 12% an the others are just at 8%, it seems only fair to reward the greatest effort. In the case where everyone lost their 8%, those who didn't get all of their original buy-in would probably think it was okay since they met their goals. JMO, of course. :)