[quote=jhudalla]if you can't do this, you won't cut it. [/quote]

I'll take a stab (3 IM finishes) . . .
[list]
[*] [b]Swim[/b]: You must be comfortable swimming for one hour in open-water, surrounded by people jockeying for position, asserting your 'virtual lane' around buouys, and have the mental capacity to fight this for an hour;
[*] [b]Bike[/b]: You need to be able to cycle 100 miles without stopping (~ 6 hours?) and possess a postive mental script that you rely on to get you through the dark places;
[*] [b]Run[/b]: You need to get in at least one 20 mile run at any pace within a month or so of the race.
[*] [b]Training volume[/b]: At a minimum you are looking at 250 hours of s/b/r, with 50% bike, 30% run, 20% swim, heavily back-loaded (up to half of the total volume) in the 12 weeks leading up the race (not counting the 2 week taper).
[*] [b]Mental[/b]: You must have a supporting cast (people you train with, friends and family who support your goals) and minimize your time spent with people or in activities that either interfere with or contradict your training.
[/list]

[quote=jhudalla]What about over-distance? [/quote]

No.

[i]"The top-performing athletes were not overachievers. The single-longest distance performed in any sport didn’t go that much beyond their race distance. For the swim it was 5,000 M, for the bike it was no longer than 209.8 KM and for the run it was no longer than 39.8KM."[/i]
[url]http://swimming.about.com/od/triathlon/a/im_dist_trainin.htm[/url]

Pssst . . . 39.8k isn't even a full marathon :) You don't need to run a 26.2 in training to do a 26.2 in the race.

Also from the same article . . .

[i]"The most significant single factor found in this study was that successful triathletes performed greater total distances of bike training, particularly over the final months leading up to an ironman-distance race . . . "[/i]
[url]http://swimming.about.com/od/triathlon/a/im_dist_trainin.htm[/url]

That's why I quoted you 50% of your training volume comes from the bike. Bike helps the run; the run doesn't help the bike.

Over-distance?
Absolutely not. You just get injured, not better.
If you simply have to punish yourself by doing more, then go for quality not quantity, but only after you have done enough base to survive the training without injury.

You could waste a lot of time being injured. Avoid it.

Suffering during training is overrated, imho.

If you are going to pursue this discussion, you had better sit down right now and come up with a meaningful goal - and I don't mean, "just to do as well as I can."
I don't mean, "To win it all" either.
Assess what you have done and can do right now, and extraploate that to a set of goals for each of the 5 splits (incl. T1 and T2) and nutrition goal.
Then look at what you would have to do in training to achieve each one of those goals.
Decide if you want to pay the price to achieve each of those goals.
Revise the plan accordingly.

PoC's Axiom #1: Nobody ever gets to the start line "completely prepared at IM distance."

PoC

[quote=jhudalla]Thats why I was thinking the uber bike mileage would really help me feel fine after 112 miles and ready for the run.[/quote] That's what bricks are for. And long bikes probably don't need to exceed five hours or 100 miles, whichever comes first. Overtaining in one thing means undertaining in everything else (because you are either injured or too fried to do anything else).

[quote=PrinceofClydes]Nobody ever gets to the start line "completely prepared at IM distance."[/quote] Training starts out with that in mind, but for me, it always ends up with, "Meh, that'll do. Good enough."

[quote=PrinceofClydes]Over-distance?
If you are going to pursue this discussion, you had better sit down right now and come up with a meaningful goal - and I don't mean, "just to do as well as I can."
I don't mean, "To win it all" either.
Assess what you have done and can do right now, and extraploate that to a set of goals for each of the 5 splits (incl. T1 and T2) and nutrition goal.
Then look at what you would have to do in training to achieve each one of those goals.
Decide if you want to pay the price to achieve each of those goals.
Revise the plan accordingly.
PoC[/quote]

... Amen

I am currently doing EXACTLY that. I sat down with a woman who is acting as my "get your stuff together" coach and planning my life so that successfully training for an IM is realistic. The IM web page also has what a "typical" Kona athlete does weekly to prepare for the event. I do have the luxury of planning 3 yrs in advance. I'm not going to hold myself to an IM until I have a full season of Oly's and 1/2 IM under my belt. I should say though that I am one of those people who hates performing anything less than as close to 100% as I feel is possible.

I would have to agree that doing the super long distance would not be beneficial. When training for marathons no one really runs the full 26.2. They run maybe at most 24 but typically most people do 18-22 for their max runs but they do it multiple times over the training period once there is a solid base and has worked up to it. This helps have a strong long run opposed to just gutting it out.

[quote=TriSooner][list]
[*] [b]Swim[/b]: You must be comfortable swimming for one hour in open-water, surrounded by people jockeying for position, asserting your 'virtual lane' around buouys, and have the mental capacity to fight this for an hour;
[*] [b]Bike[/b]: You need to be able to cycle 100 miles without stopping (~ 6 hours?) and possess a postive mental script that you rely on to get you through the dark places;
[*] [b]Run[/b]: You need to get in at least one 20 mile run at any pace within a month or so of the race.
[/list][/quote]

What is your goal? To complete the distance? To finish in a certain time? If you have time goal, what is your time goal based on? Some general numbers to toss around... take your half ironman time and add an hour. Or for the run portion, take your marathon time and add 30 minutes. Obviously this assumes you're not walking.

Give us some existing times to work with.

[quote=tsilcyc]

What is your goal? To complete the distance? To finish in a certain time? If you have time goal, what is your time goal based on? Some general numbers to toss around... take your half ironman time[b], double it[/b] and add an hour. Or for the run portion, take your marathon time and add 30 minutes. Obviously this assumes you're not walking.

Give us some existing times to work with.[/quote]

Fixed (I think)

[quote=mtbke15]I would have to agree that doing the super long distance would not be beneficial. When training for marathons no one really runs the full 26.2. They run maybe at most 24 but typically most people do 18-22 for their max runs but they do it multiple times over the training period once there is a solid base and has worked up to it. This helps have a strong long run opposed to just gutting it out. [/quote]

Don't run any more than three hours.

[quote=Landyachtz]
Fixed (I think)[/quote]

Nice catch... thanks.

Don't run any more than three hours.
[/quote]

Are you saying that for when training for an IM or in general when training for a marathon?

[quote=mtbke15]
Don't run any more than three hours.
[/quote]
Are you saying that for when training for an IM or in general when training for a marathon?[/quote]

Both. The gains are minimal in comparison to the potential chance of injury.

[quote=jhudalla]This thread was intended to be about the IM disty as a whole[/quote]

And it was completely thread jacked. :)

Back on track.

Things I have learned:

- Don't over think the race.
- The race is about the last 13 miles. Everything before it is just getting me to that point.
- I need to stay on my nutrition even when I don't want to.
- Don't focus on the time goals since there are too many factors that can cause interference.
- Enjoy the race.

[quote=jhudalla]Marathon 3:55 - With only 3 runs over 15 miles. I like to bike the most.
10k - 43:xx
HIM 6:20 - Bonked on the ride (see above) and suffered on the run. I've learned my lesson.
OLY - 2:33[/quote]
For you? I would say, keep doing the training you have in the past but focus on nutrition. It's the 4th event.

I think for training in general if you do the events singularly you can go over distance but not by much.
Before I started training for an IM I had done several marathons, had swam over 2.5 miles in one shot, and biked about 115 miles.

I think doing each of the events gave me an idea of how long the distances were.

However, once you start training I felt it was more beneficial to do long training in each discipline that was less than the event distance, but multiple times to get used to it.

Bricks and transition practices helped a lot as well.

[quote=jnrice]The IM web page also has what a "typical" Kona athlete does weekly to prepare for the event.[/quote] 1) The typical Kona competitor [i]qualified[/i] to get there (ie, they are top age groupers to begin with) and 2) the data are self-reported, which calls into question reliability and validity. Don't judge your volume or adjust your training based on what someone self-reported.

[quote=jhudalla]HIM 6:20[/quote]

Going back to the OP, if your only HIM is 6:20 - regardless of whether or not you bonked - I would predict a 13:40 finish (HIM of 6:20 X 2 + 1hr = 13:40). And I can tell you, at 13:40 is pretty damn hard.

[quote=jhudalla][quote=TriSooner][quote=jhudalla]HIM 6:20[/quote]

Going back to the OP, if your only HIM is 6:20 - regardless of whether or not you bonked - I would predict a 13:40 finish (HIM of 6:20 X 2 + 1hr = 13:40). And I can tell you, at 13:40 is pretty damn hard.
[/quote]

I'm going to be logging some serious weeks this winter as I'm hoping to really kill that HIM time in April (Oceanside 70.3) Basically I just want to finish in the daylight with a smile on my face, but finish no matter what.[/quote] Pick a spring or summer IM. A 13 hour + finish puts you at 8 pm or later. I wouldn't get so focused on a time goal as much as finishing with a smile. Have fun with it!! ;-)

[quote=jhudalla]So a 12:30 is unrealistic?[/quote]

I wouldn't say 12:30 is unrealistic, since I don't know you.
I think you could get a good idea what you are capable of by doing other events.
What is your 1/2 IM time?
How long does it take you to swim 2.4 miles?
How long does it take you to bike 122 miles
How long does it take you run a marathon?

That will tell you can complete the distances and that will give you a grasp of what needs to be done. Then you just have to put that all together.

It all depends on the day.

I have finished a HIM in 5:50 and 5:15 on a tough course and finished my IM in 12:47. Although the training is somewhat similar the experiences were vastly different. I did not have the constant worry of wether or not I was going to make it with the HIM. Nothing I did in training prepared me for the feeling on the run during the IM. the thought that my legs were going to shut down or my stomach was going to reject everything was with me for 22 miles. I do feel like I was mentally prepared by swimming the 2.5 distance, completing 3 century rides with bricks, and also finishing 3 20 mile runs. There were also a few days when I cut it short because, as TriSooner said, "Good enough". I want to be doing this for a long time and I don't want to burn out.

[quote=jhudalla]So a 12:30 is unrealistic?[/quote]

Is this your goal?

my advice is simple: do NOT have a time goal in mind. Don't get me wrong: go hard, or as hard as you want, just don't get all hung up on a certain time. You'll get your IM PR down the road a bit. Your first IM is really special: don't muck it up by obsessing over being 15 or 45 or whatever minutes over some figures you tossed together in your mind. Train adequately so you've confident you'll finish, and finish well before the cutoff time, then just take it all in come raceday & enjoy it. IMWI is a great one to start on.

[quote=jhudalla]Surely I'll keep this thread going after I finish my HIM in april, and early next summer though my long - long weekends.

But yeah, 12:30 would be great. But finish is the primary goal.[/quote]

I think it's fine to have a time goal but it needs to be realistic. Is it? I have no idea but we can revisit this in April.

[quote=knemyer]my advice is simple: do NOT have a time goal in mind. Don't get me wrong: go hard, or as hard as you want, just don't get all hung up on a certain time. You'll get your IM PR down the road a bit.[/quote]

By definition, your first IM will be a PR. :)

jono

All the above advice is great... I'll add one thing.
You must get to the starting line healthy. THAT is the first goal of Ironman.
I strongly agree with the comments on avoiding over distance.
The one thing you must do perfectly, without fail...is rest. A former pro told me "The only place you get stronger is on the couch."
First time out of the blocks...just have fun and don't get wrapped up in all the gee-gaw that the TRI related companies want you to use and buy...
Good solid training, coupled with proper nutrition and rest will trump technology.
It's a blast! Keep us posted on your training...

[quote=jhudalla]So a 12:30 is unrealistic?[/quote]

J, You started out the thread with a reasonable general question, but when you get down to this one about a specific goal, no one can answer that meaningfully without even knowing the basics about you, such as

age
weight
experience
gender
past performances (at least you gave us some times to work on)
strengths ( eg. former NCAA swimmer)
weaknesses (eg. diabetes, learned to swim last month, weighs 275 lbs, etc.)
time limitations
geography (eg. lives in Greenland)

I keep repeating this year after year to posters here on trifuel, fill out your profile!
You can't expect meaningful answers in an information vacuum.
The more you tell us about yourself the more useful the responses will be.
PoC

[quote=jhudalla]This thread isn't intended to be about me, it was about all of you IMers and your experience with a lack thereof on your first IM and how you corrected said lack in the proceeding IMs and the result. I realize it's an on going battle, and each race day is different, but just some experiences from everyone is what I'm after.

Beginning in Nov I'm planning on ramping up my swimming to 12k/week as it is the area I need the most work in. I really want to develop a crushing run this next season so I plan on working on that as well. I have a race in April, and 4 weeks off from gradschool in Dec/Jan so I'm planning on really ramping up the cycling then and getting in a couple 300 mile weeks between the trainer and mountain bike - then building power on the bike through Feb/March resulting in a mini peak for Oceanside 70.3 in April. After that I'll surely repost a similar thread asking similar questions from a different angle and with some new numbers.

But to answer your question;

28 - Sagitarius
6'1"
170lbs
Experience includes 2 yrs in tri, but 8 years of marathoning
Strengths - Run/Bike - an ironwill - dashing good looks
No significant weaknesses
Time limitation - 12hrs/week
Minneapolis/Minnesota

[/quote]

You forgot to tell us

If you like Pina Coladas
And getting caught in the rain
If you're not into yoga
If you have half a brain... ;-)

[quote=jhudalla]Awe yes, Pina Coladas. I prefer scotch.
I like going to distance places but find myself looking for familiar faces
Not into yoga
I enjoy a warm coffee on a cold evening
Sunsets are golden
And I really like dew drops on flowers and wiskers on kittens... just a few of my favorite things[/quote]

Personally I think might be more accurate

Jingle Hells Bells

(Parody of My Favorite Things)

Ho Ho Ho

Ho Ho Ho

Like Guns N Roses with Axel Rose spittin’
Ozzie’s black eyes and the bats that he’s bitten
Big Marshall stacks and a broken E-string
These are a few of my favorite things

Ho Ho Ho

Penthouse apartments and twelve in a hot tub
Drinking Jack Daniels while getting a backrub
Little gold chains pinned to brass nipple rings
These are a few of my favorite things

We like bar fights
We like nose rings
We like eating snails
We always indulge in our favorite things
No wonder our skin’s so pale

Girls in black leather
With tight little tushes
Tattoos on big bosoms of prickly rose bushes
Silver stretch limos that come when I ring
These are a few of my favorite things

We like bar fights
We like nose rings
We like eating snails
We always indulge in our favorite things
No wonder our skin’s
Jingle Hell’s Bells

HO HO HO

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

See the whole thing is about having fun, starting and finishing with a smile.

[quote=jhudalla]

But to answer your question;

28 - Sagitarius
6'1"
170lbs
Experience includes 2 yrs in tri, but 8 years of marathoning
Strengths - Run/Bike - an ironwill - dashing good looks
No significant weaknesses
Time limitation - 12hrs/week
Minneapolis/Minnesota

[/quote]

That's great, now cut & paste it into your profile page for permanent reference.

12 hours a week available to achieve 12:30:00 IM time at age 28, wt. 170, with your experience might be a reach. You'd have to be very focused on quality and be lucky with avoiding injuries.
This can only be an estimate based on personal experience though. The best thing in your favour is that you have 12 months at your disposal, is that what you said?

PoC