VO2 Max
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krbrownabq posted 3 years ago.
Heh heh heh. You might regret asking.
This is going to be a long one involving a great deal of math, so hang on.
To estimate VO2 max, you need to do a submaximal graded exercise test on a treadmill. You can do a max, but you should probably be with some folks if you do (as in trainers and doctors). And don't do this alone - as with any test or exercise, there is an increased risk of a cardiovascular event up to and including death.
Start on a treadmill. Wear a HR monitor. Do the following stages (each 3 mins) and record the following data:
Stage 1 - 4.0 mph at 0% grade - take HR at min. 2 and min. 3
Stage 2 - 5.0 mph at 3% grade - take HR at min. 2 and min. 3
Stage 3 - 6.0 mph at 6% grade - take HR at min. 2 and min. 3
Stage 4 - 8.0 mph at 9% grade - take HR at min. 2 and min. 3
By this point, you should be well within your HR range of 70-85% of max, if not much higher. If not, do stage 5.
Stage 5 - 10.0 mph at 12% grade - take HR at min. 2 and min. 3
For most of us, this will likely elicit a HRmax too. You’ll need that later, so record it. Your HRmax is the HR at which no matter what you do to further stress yourself, you can’t get a higher HR.
Now, do the following calculations for the last two stages you complete (likely 3 and 4).
Calculate the V02 for each of the last two stages:
V02=(0.2x26.8xMPH)+(0.9x26.8xMPHxgrade)+3.5 where grade is expressed as a decimal measure (2% grade = 0.02)
Now, for the last two stages you completed, average the two HRs. Now calculate the slope between the two VO2s.
slope(b) = (vo2 for stage 4 - vo2 for stage 3) / (hr for stage 4 - hr for stage 3)
Now for VO2 max
VO2max=vo2 for stage 4 + (slope x(HRmax-HR for stage 4))
If you get a number over 50, you’re in very good shape.
If you get a number over 80, you’ve had a math error.
Most of us will likely be in the 25-70 range. If you have problems calculating this, email me your data and I’ll help you out.
Kelli
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krbrownabq posted 3 years ago.
PS - BMI is a bunch of crap for athletes. Don't go by it, or you could actually do a lot of metabolic damage to your body.
Kelli
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thehitman posted 3 years ago.
Kelli -
You're right about BMI being a lot of b.s. with respect to athletes.
But can't the same be said about those nonsensical VO2 calculations you recited?
thehitman
thehitman
“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” Mark Twain
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krbrownabq posted 3 years ago.
Hitman, I'm not sure what you mean. VO2 max is basic biochemistry. BMI is based off of three white guys who died in a car accident in the 60s, who were chopped up and weighed according to fat-free tissue, etc. So unless you're a sedentary, college-age white guy, you're a bit screwed. On the other hand, we can actual MEASURE VO2 max in a lab, whereas, the only way to MEASURE body fat is dissection. For this reason alone, we've been able to double check the validity of the formulas (which are an estimate) against breathing into a bag during a submax test and actually measuring the Kg per meter per minute of oxygen consumed.
So I guess I'm a bit confused - what do you mean by nonsensical?
Kelli
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thehitman posted 3 years ago.
Kelli -
JKS may regret having asked the question, but I'm sure she's relieved that she didn't have her BMI tested!!
And you're absolutely right about the actual existence of a VO2 max, and the fact that it can be determined though testing procedures in a laboratory. It works for Lance! But Lance didn't ask the question; a beginning triathlete did. And you didn't tell her to go to the lab.
So what's nonsensical is that someone would have to put him or herself through the routine you outline, and then perform the mathematical gymnastics that you provided; all for the purpose of obtaining a rough guestimate of a value that is of dubious usefulness for a beginning triathlete in the first place.
This ain't rocket science, folks.
thehitman
thehitman
“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” Mark Twain
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2352
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Tribro posted 3 years ago.
Whoa,
JKS did ask what the calculation was to figure out the VO2Max. Kelli took the time to lay it out and offered offline assistance in helping with the calculations.
No need to argue over the formulas to get the data. True most triathletes don't need the information and those that do get lab tested, but that wasn't the question posed.
Thanks Kelli for taking the time to answer JKS.
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1704 days
krbrownabq posted 3 years ago.
Uh, ouch. Right. It's not rocket science. But I would argue that the vast majority of training isn't rocket science. That doesn't mean folks aren't interested in where they compare to other athletes. Or even to Lance, for that matter. And the fact is, clinical data shows you don't need a lab, but just a bit of math.
When it comes right down to it, none of us need HRMs, BMI, lap times, cadence, etc. But we like it. And some of us just want to know - and then train - and see if it changes.
If you're running sub-6 min miles and can still chat with your running buddies, do you really need a HRM to tell you you're in good shape? If your oly. bike split is under an hour, do you need someone to tell you you've got a good cadence and are a strong cyclist? No, of course not. That doesn't mean I don't have a bike computer, and I wouldn't leave the house without my HRM.
I guess it's a matter of what you consider to be necessary. I was just trying to help with the most accurate answer you can get without a lab.
No one needs to tell Lance he's a strong cyclist. He still does your so-called "nonsensical" VO2max non-lab-based field tests on a regular basis, per Chris Carmichael. So I think there's more to it than a matter of necessity, regardless of what level you're training at.
Kelli
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1510 days
*Shyner* posted 3 years ago.
Hey, As a sports science student I found it really interesting to see how you can calculate VO2 max without actually doing the max test - did that in the lab this morning as a subject!! I see I still have a lot to learn! Interesting to know about how they came up with BMI too!
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thehitman posted 3 years ago.
Double Ouch?
How about if I agree with everyone, on most things?
And Kelli is right, in my opinion to point to Chris Carmichael.
As Joe Friel points out in "Going Long", at p. 18:
"Aerobic capacity (VO2 max) is not a good predictor of endurance performance....
Compared with aerobic capacity, lactate threshold is highly susceptible to enhancement by training."
As I've said previously, I like Carmichael's time trial method (outlined in "The Ultimate Ride") to determine optimum training heart rates. And the time trial method attempts to measure aerobic/anaerobic/lactate threshhold. Why do I like it? Because unlike the other "scientific" tests and calculations, it works for me --- it validates my intuitive/perceived training levels.
If I want to take it easier, I could train according to the (220 minus age) calculations; or any one of the several other popular calculations. But the existence of these various conflicting calculations -- all of which purport to determine optimum training levels (while giving different results), necessarily call into question not only their own validity, but also the "scientific method" upon which they're based. Inductive knowledge is an oxymoron. So to which tine of Hume's Fork do I assign these tests? I choose the third:- nonsense.
thehitman
thehitman
“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” Mark Twain
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seekfun posted 3 years ago.
I think there's a little bit of geek in any triathlete, so this stuff is pretty interesting even if it has little-to-no value for the beginner.
I have a lot of different hobbies and in almost all of them, half the reason I do them is because they require ongoing learning of highly specialized minutiae, involve strange exotic sounding vocabularies, and give me an excuse to fill my garage (toy box) with tons of fun gear.
So, ask the "meaningless" questions, please; we all get a little something out of them.
[FONT=Verdana]~ topher
"...there is a there out there..." ~ Tom Robbins
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thehitman posted 3 years ago.
Right on!
And the responses to each question will hopefully provide insight; even when answers are elusive.
thehitman
thehitman
“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” Mark Twain
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JKS posted 3 years ago.
Eek what have I done? We used to be such a happy family? ;) Thanks Kelli for explaining the VO2max for me, it wasn't intended to cause any reaction.
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Tribro posted 3 years ago.
We still are... right guys :)
Just a little difference of opinion between siblings...
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catwood posted 3 years ago.
edit -- ok that was too harsh....
shyner, krbrownabg, thanks -- i am really interested in what you have to say about sports science, and I sure hope I am not the only one...
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thehitman posted 3 years ago.
Me, too.
So if Kelli and I have offended any proponents of BMI out there, maybe I should apologize for the both of us.
Or better yet, invite them to join the discussion.
thhitman
thehitman
“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” Mark Twain
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1450 days
BrianB posted 3 years ago.
Kelli - I planned on running intervals tomorrow morn...I have always wondered about my VO2Max, but procrastinated actually going to the lab. I am an engineer, but your estimation feels good to me...I will start my interval fun with your test! Thanks...now I won't be able to sleep because I am excited to see how it turns out...I am definitely a geek!!
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BrianB posted 3 years ago.
Kelli,
I left my heart rate monitor on the kitchen table this morning #@@#%%#, so I will do it on Tues most likely.
I will repond back on this thread to let everyone know how well it worked.
Thanks again - Brian
Hi
How do I work out what my personal VO2 max is? Is there a calculation to work it out similar to working out your BMI? And what percentage of this figure should you aim for during training?
Thanx in advance