Olympics' Bikes
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tri-ac posted 1 year ago.
potentially personal fit
maybe the hills at the end circuit
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tom1376 posted 1 year ago.
They are allowed to draft - tri-bars aren't good for being in a large group as they don't handle as well.
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Leroy Bonkers posted 1 year ago.
These are the ITU rules on handlebars------------
E.3.6 Handlebars
For elite and junior competitors in Triathlon World Cups, Olympic Games, ITU Regional Championships, ITU International Events, the following rule on handlebars apply: (Note: This rule will not apply to age group competitions or long distance events).
a) Only traditional drop handlebars are permitted
b) Clip-ons will be permitted provided they do not extend more than 15 cm beyond the front wheel axle, and they are not longer than the brake levers' foremost line.
c) Straight forward clip-ons must be bridged, and must not carry forward facing brake levers
d) No forward facing bar or gear shifters are allowed on the end of the clip-ons. The only exception will be grip shifters.
e) Elbow pads are permitted.
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TriSooner posted 1 year ago.
Visual explanation courtesy of UFTriGator/Boy Toy :)
One for 'no drafting' (ie, USAT and IM) and one for draft-legal (ie, Olympics and ITU)
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Kwyjibo posted 1 year ago.
Leroy Bonkers wrote:
These are the ITU rules on handlebars------------E.3.6 Handlebars
For elite and junior competitors in Triathlon World Cups, Olympic Games, ITU Regional Championships, ITU International Events, the following rule on handlebars apply: (Note: This rule will not apply to age group competitions or long distance events).
a) Only traditional drop handlebars are permitted
b) Clip-ons will be permitted provided they do not extend more than 15 cm beyond the front wheel axle, and they are not longer than the brake levers' foremost line.
c) Straight forward clip-ons must be bridged, and must not carry forward facing brake levers
d) No forward facing bar or gear shifters are allowed on the end of the clip-ons. The only exception will be grip shifters.
e) Elbow pads are permitted.
So, basically, they are using tribikes (frame) with road bike handlebars?
K.
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kylie posted 1 year ago.
A lot of them are actually on road geometry bikes (like the white cervelos with the rings on them).
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SpeedDemon07 posted 1 year ago.
correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't need a TT bike if you can draft. There is not really a point. Road bikes are better handling as someone mentioned before and in ITU and olympic style racing, it would be hard to enforce the rules of no drafting and staying a cetain distance from the rider in front of you like you see in local and national events because the athletes are so equal. I could be completely wrong though. :)
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jtrimom posted 1 year ago.
TriSooner wrote:
Visual explanation courtesy of UFTriGator/Boy Toy :)One for 'no drafting' (ie, USAT and IM) and one for draft-legal (ie, Olympics and ITU)
is that another topless pic of matt? it's very dark and hard too see...I think we need something more...
Taper Naked
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diva_mom posted 1 year ago.
it is another glimpse of greatness. thanks for bringing that back, sooner.
Don't be so easy on yourself 'cause this one might be all that you have left
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xc800runner posted 1 year ago.
SpeedDemon07 wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't need a TT bike if you can draft. There is not really a point. Road bikes are better handling as someone mentioned before and in ITU and olympic style racing, it would be hard to enforce the rules of no drafting and staying a cetain distance from the rider in front of you like you see in local and national events because the athletes are so equal. I could be completely wrong though. :)
It has nothing to do with the even abilities. ITU rules allow for drafting in races because that's a) how they want it, and b) how it should be. It's a race, and strategy should always play a role in racing. Sure, it makes it difficult to compete if you're not in the group coming off the swim, but it just makes that portion so much more important.
As for bike geometry, you will get a similar hip angle if you sit more upright using a road bike at 74 deg, as you would fully aero at 79 deg. Your legs will feel very similar coming off the bike either way. And since drafting is legal, there's no need for aero positioning. Triathletes run into trouble on the run coming off road bikes with slack seat angles because when they slap on some clip-ons to lean over and get aero, they make their hip angles more acute, which decreases power output and increases usage of the hamstrings. You need them fresher to run fast, and tri geometry does this.
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PrinceofClydes posted 1 year ago.
xc800runner wrote:
It has nothing to do with the even abilities. ITU rules allow for drafting in races because that's a) how they want it, and b) how it should be.
Harrummph.
In an effort to appease TV directors who wanted to see a close race, ie. a sprint finish, the ITU sold the sport out.
TV people don't understand multi-sport from an athlete's perspective and the draft legal concept has made the bike leg insignificant.
It has turned a once-interesting sport into a bad 10k race for runners who know to swim and how to hang with a pack for an hour.
Aerobars, clip-on or otherwise, may also afford some rest for the back and shoulders during the middle of the race, useful if you spend most of your training miles leaning on the forearm pads.
PoC
""Your ass looks fantastic. Are the kids in bed yet???"
- TonisTri. 10/2009
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jonovision_man posted 1 year ago.
xc800runner wrote:
It has nothing to do with the even abilities. ITU rules allow for drafting in races because that's a) how they want it, and b) how it should be. It's a race, and strategy should always play a role in racing.
I disagree with your "b". Personally, I'd prefer to see a strong cyclist open up an honest lead based on his cycling prowess, then have strong runners try to hunt him down.
You can't do that now - an individual going solo off the front of the pack is at such a huge disadvantage that it's not practical, unless you can get a few guys in a break-away going... and even then, the big pack will almost always prevail, they use much less energy.
Let the Tour de France be a team effort, triathlons should be individual vs clock, fastest person wins.
jono
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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.
PrinceofClydes wrote:
the draft legal concept has made the bike leg insignificant.
Whoa.....not so much. People seem to think that everyone is "sitting in" in an ITU race and saving up all of their energy. The truth is, after coming out of a blazing fast swim (much harder than non-drafting because you have to hang with the surges that are going close to 1:00 100m pace), you need to sprint through transition, then put out 600-ish W for a minute or so to even make the pack. After that, you need to put out 600W out of every corner and up every hill. If you can't do all of that, you're off the back and your race is essentially over. Because you spend so much time going anaerobic then trying to recover, I think that ITU racing is actually much harder than non-drafting.
Some people are going to watch just the Olympics then decide that ITU racing is all just waiting and sitting in until the last 5k on the run, but all major races (not just in triathlon) tend to be slower and more defined by tactics. That's why you'll almost never see a WR in any track race longer than 800m at the Olympics or WCs. Watch some of the regular season ITU World Cups or even some of the Continental Cups and you'll see a lot more breakaways on the bike.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.
jonovision_man wrote:
You can't do that now - an individual going solo off the front of the pack is at such a huge disadvantage that it's not practical, unless you can get a few guys in a break-away going... and even then, the big pack will almost always prevail, they use much less energy.
Actually, that's how Matt Reed won the Olympic Trials this year. It's also how Jarrod Shoemaker got beat by Brian Fleischmann at the Geneva Pan Am Cup last month in NY. I'm sure it happened a lot more at other races outside the US, but those were the only ones I went to.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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PrinceofClydes posted 1 year ago.
Matt, I'm sure you are right about it being harder, but that doesn't address the point I'm trying to make.
You have describd the necessity of swimming really hard to be with "the pack" at T1.
peloton power makes it nearly impossible to get away from "the Pack."
I think the TV folks have shot themselves in the foot. I don't need to watch the first hour and a half of the race because they will all be together until then, when someone can afford to risk dropping the hammer to go for the win.
Making a move before that is either desperate or foolish.
In no-draft races where there can co-exist athletes of disparate abilities in different legs of the race, it pays to go from the gun because you don't know where the attack is going to come from. I love watching the fish come out of the water pedaling furiously, hoping to build a lead chased by the uber-bikers followed by the rabbits biding their time, hoping to conserve the gap, to see the powerfully built bikers scamper away on the run, perhaps to be run down by a rabbit, but perhaps to stay away while the pursuers blow-up and stagger to the roadside puking their guts out.
But refereeing no-draft races on a looped course of short duration is difficult. Perhaps we needsome serious elevation to make breakaways - and catch-ups possible?
I appreciate the discourse,
Geoff
""Your ass looks fantastic. Are the kids in bed yet???"
- TonisTri. 10/2009
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Kwyjibo posted 1 year ago.
So, from what i've read in this thread so far, it can be assumed that a road bike it's better for races where drafting is allowed (almost every OLY, at least in my region). ¿Do you agree?
I planned to buy a tribike next month, but now i think that it would be a mistake since ill will lose advantage instead of gaining any. So road bike for OLY and tribike for HIM and IM is the way to go?
K.
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PrinceofClydes posted 1 year ago.
Kwyjibo wrote:
So, from what i've read in this thread so far, it can be assumed that a road bike it's better for races where drafting is allowed (almost every OLY, at least in my region). ¿Do you agree?I planned to buy a tribike next month, but now i think that it would be a mistake since ill will lose advantage instead of gaining any. So road bike for OLY and tribike for HIM and IM is the way to go?
K.
Sounds right to me, especially if there is significant climbing involved.
If you are riiding in a pack, aerobars could be a serious liability rather than an advantage, and of course, an aero- frame (in TT geometry) without aero bars is just a waste.
PoC
""Your ass looks fantastic. Are the kids in bed yet???"
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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.
Geoff,
Look at the women's WC race back in June in Vancouver. Tucker and Haskins went off the front on the bike and built up such a big lead that no one was anywhere close when they finished 1-2 (they had the 6th and 7th fastest runs and still had almost a minute gap on 3rd place).
Potts swam away from the field at Trials this year and was solo off the front for 4 laps. Reed busted his ass to bring him back before attacking. He ended up holding off Potts and Kemper for the win.
Last night, if Whitfield didn't have a domestique (I think his name was Colins) chasing down every attack, the results would have been different. Canada brought him to the Olympics to do that so that Simon could run for the win. All of the different racing dynamics make the ITU format that much more exciting. The tactics and thinking are a much bigger part of the race than they are in non-drafting races.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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charlie6460 posted 1 year ago.
I am personally a fan of triathlons staying an individual sport. This team aspect takes away from what I like in the sport… a personal achievement. But then again I am just a wanna be amateur so what do I know?
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PrinceofClydes posted 1 year ago.
It seems like we are describing the format from two different perspectives: you from the competitors POV and me from watching it.
I won't deny you the excitement, the sound and the fury of the ITU format when experienced from inside the race.
As a spectator I prefer the majesty of the solo effort, the competitor winning on her merit alone, and I come from a long history of team sports too when I say this.
I'll watch both of them and will enjoy the tactical moves and the bold brash failures too.
It's all good.
PoC
""Your ass looks fantastic. Are the kids in bed yet???"
- TonisTri. 10/2009
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xc800runner posted 1 year ago.
PrinceofClydes wrote:
I don't need to watch the first hour and a half of the race because they will all be together until then, when someone can afford to risk dropping the hammer to go for the win.
Making a move before that is either desperate or foolish.
It's not necessarily either. If you know you won't be able to hang with the runners, there's no reason not to try and open up a big gap between you and the field. If you watched last night's race, Zeebroek and Bockel knew they needed to get out on the bike to have a good showing; their run times were 33:15 and 34:19, respectively. Compare that to Frodeno, et al. running sub-31, and you see the need for going off the front. I doubt they would have saved a full minute on the run by not attacking.
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xc800runner posted 1 year ago.
PrinceofClydes wrote:
Harrummph.
In an effort to appease TV directors who wanted to see a close race, ie. a sprint finish, the ITU sold the sport out.PoC
Hey, if you want this to be a completely self-sufficient sport, go ahead and enjoy taking 7 gallons of water with you on your Kona bike and run legs. Cut out all the aid stations, special needs bags, and sag wagons. You flat? Eh, at worst you'll only have 56 miles to ride back into town, it's certainly doable.
Even with the USAT regulations, this is not an individual sport. If you are going to complain about drafting on the bike, why not in the swim? Or on the run? Same principle, and same effect. Less drag = less effort.
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beads1985 posted 1 year ago.
xc800runner wrote:
PrinceofClydes wrote:Harrummph.
In an effort to appease TV directors who wanted to see a close race, ie. a sprint finish, the ITU sold the sport out.PoC
Hey, if you want this to be a completely self-sufficient sport, go ahead and enjoy taking 7 gallons of water with you on your Kona bike and run legs. Cut out all the aid stations, special needs bags, and sag wagons. You flat? Eh, at worst you'll only have 56 miles to ride back into town, it's certainly doable.
Even with the USAT regulations, this is not an individual sport. If you are going to complain about drafting on the bike, why not in the swim? Or on the run? Same principle, and same effect. Less drag = less effort.
I too like to see the individual effort as well.
Yes there is drafting on the swim and the run as well.
However, the swim is not as long of a leg as the bike and the advantages of drafting in swimming is a lot less than in cycling because of the speed of the individual and the medium which they are going thru.
In the run the draft effect is minimal because of the speed of the individuals is not fast enough to create a significant break in the air for someone following, unless they are within a couple of feet of an individual and there is a wind they are running into.
'Nothing to it, but to do it!'
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jonovision_man posted 1 year ago.
UFTriGator wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:
You can't do that now - an individual going solo off the front of the pack is at such a huge disadvantage that it's not practical, unless you can get a few guys in a break-away going... and even then, the big pack will almost always prevail, they use much less energy.
Actually, that's how Matt Reed won the Olympic Trials this year. It's also how Jarrod Shoemaker got beat by Brian Fleischmann at the Geneva Pan Am Cup last month in NY. I'm sure it happened a lot more at other races outside the US, but those were the only ones I went to.
That's impressive, but when you're burning 30% more than a guy in the pack it's not going to be a winning strategy most days...
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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.
jonovision_man wrote:
That's impressive, but when you're burning 30% more than a guy in the pack it's not going to be a winning strategy most days...
Based on what? Most races I've seen have been won by guys getting in a break or starting off in a small front pack because of a breakaway in the swim.
Maybe the races Gomez wins are usually won from a large bike pack, but he still has to know where to burn the matches on the run. He always attacks somewhere around 5k because he doesn't have the closing speed that he would need to win in a sprint (which we saw last night). Everybody racing needs to figure out what they need to do to beat the other guys, which can change their strategy from one week to the next depending on the course, conditions, and who shows up. That's the beauty of ITU racing.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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jonovision_man posted 1 year ago.
http://www.dailypeloton.com/gstepan.asp
Quote:
The principles of paceline etiquette are designed to keep the group's speed consistently high and to avoid accidents. The essential purpose of the paceline is efficiency. In other words, the group is trying to keep its speed consistently higher than any single member of the group could maintain on his or her own. This efficiency is possible because it is as much as 30% easier to ride behind someone, where the wind resistance is considerable lower.
There was an article about this in Bicycling Magazine, complete with power meters and such... they came to the same conclusion, riding in a large pack gave a 30% improvement in efficiency (ie. you needed 30% less power to maintain the same speed).
Of course it depends on a lot of factors... if it's a hilly course, or if there's a tail wind, the benefit decreases. But in cycling it's never easier to ride alone.
Bottom line: allowing drafting makes it a team sport. If that's what you want, then OK, but I prefer it to be an individual vs. clock.
jono
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slammy posted 1 year ago.
It should just be so there only is one athlete from each country, so it's the best athletes who race against each other. That way there wouldn't be any athlete just racing to help a team-mate, and if you don't want someone to break away, well, then you have to spent your own energy catching them again. This way there would be both tactic and individual effort in a kinda combination...
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PrinceofClydes posted 1 year ago.
xc800runner wrote:
PrinceofClydes wrote:I don't need to watch the first hour and a half of the race because they will all be together until then, when someone can afford to risk dropping the hammer to go for the win.
Making a move before that is either desperate or foolish.It's not necessarily either. If you know you won't be able to hang with the runners, there's no reason not to try and open up a big gap between you and the field. If you watched last night's race, Zeebroek and Bockel knew they needed to get out on the bike to have a good showing; their run times were 33:15 and 34:19, respectively. Compare that to Frodeno, et al. running sub-31, and you see the need for going off the front. I doubt they would have saved a full minute on the run by not attacking.
Howdy, xc800runner, this is a discussion, don't be angry with me if I pose an opposing view.
That move by Zeebroek & Bockel is exactly what I mean by desperate. That was their only chance of winning a medal, and it didn't work. Those two had no other option and were running out of real estate, ergo, desperate.
As I expressed to Matt above, my perspective is merely my own view. You are welcome to yours. I'm okay with that.
Geoff
""Your ass looks fantastic. Are the kids in bed yet???"
- TonisTri. 10/2009
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kylie posted 1 year ago.
slammy wrote:
It should just be so there only is one athlete from each country, so it's the best athletes who race against each other.
Hmmm I'm not sure it would have that effect. Take gymnastics for example, where the top people on an event might be from the same country. If we only allow one, we don't necessarily only allow the best since the top 3 could all be from the same place.
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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.
jonovision_man wrote:
There was an article about this in Bicycling Magazine, complete with power meters and such... they came to the same conclusion, riding in a large pack gave a 30% improvement in efficiency (ie. you needed 30% less power to maintain the same speed).Of course it depends on a lot of factors... if it's a hilly course, or if there's a tail wind, the benefit decreases. But in cycling it's never easier to ride alone.
Bottom line: allowing drafting makes it a team sport. If that's what you want, then OK, but I prefer it to be an individual vs. clock.
jono
I know what drafting is. :)
I was saying that going off the front isn't going to be a wasted effort that hardly works like you said. Most races (that Javier Gomez doesn't win) are won by someone who went off the front in either the bike or swim.
If you want to see an event that is just a bunch of individuals, that's fine. But most races involve a group dynamic that people have to play to in order to succeed. (running, swimming, cycling, rowing, etc) Races are supposed to be one guy against another, which is why something like the Tour where everyone is trying to beat everyone else my using tactics and fitness is much more popular than watching someone try to break the hour record.
Oh, and don't reference Bicycling magazine for technical stuff....they're notorious for being wrong. :) Remember the MIT article from a few years back? LOL!
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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xc800runner posted 1 year ago.
beads1985 wrote:
Yes there is drafting on the swim and the run as well.
However, the swim is not as long of a leg as the bike and the advantages of drafting in swimming is a lot less than in cycling because of the speed of the individual and the medium which they are going thru.
In the run the draft effect is minimal because of the speed of the individuals is not fast enough to create a significant break in the air for someone following, unless they are within a couple of feet of an individual and there is a wind they are running into.
It's been a slow day at work for me...
Here are some drag calculations based off the general speed of athletes in the olympics [3 mph swim, 25 mph bike, 12 mph(5 min/mile) run] and empirical evidence for each body position.
Drag is calculated by: F = Cd(1/2)(p)(V^2)A
F = Drag Force
Cd = Drag coefficient of body
p = density of medium
V = speed of body
A = frontal area
Drag forces acting on the body:
Swim: 276.5 lbf
Bike: 55.6 lbf
Run: 32.4 lbf
This is with a completely stationary medium through which you move.
As you can see, the drag on a swimmer is much greater than that on a cyclist. The effect on a runner at these speeds is low, but not insignificant.
Granted, these numbers are for the guys in the olympics, and the average age grouper will be slower, thus reducing their drag and the effectiveness of drafting will be less. But assuming the maximum draft of 30% on the bike (and a corresponding 30% on the run), the advantages of drafting on the swim vastly outweigh a draft on the bike. Evidence has shown a drop in drag of up to 44%(link) for swim drafting, making this even more imperative for s strong swim.
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xc800runner posted 1 year ago.
PrinceofClydes wrote:
Howdy, xc800runner, this is a discussion, don't be angry with me if I pose an opposing view.That move by Zeebroek & Bockel is exactly what I mean by desperate. That was their only chance of winning a medal, and it didn't work. Those two had no other option and were running out of real estate, ergo, desperate.
Geoff
My comments weren't intended to slight you in any way, though I understand how quoting you in 2 successive instances may come off that way. Merely a (poor) attempt to keep the discussion open.
Personally, I wouldn't call moves off the front desperate, though. It's merely the strategy that they understood would work best for them on a given day. Had they held on for the win with a charging chase pack, would we have been calling that foolish? Not likely.
Sure, they may have waited a bit too long to make the break, but then again, the peloton may have prevented them from attacking sooner, knowing that too big a gap would blow their own chances and understanding that a late break wouldn't be able to put in enough time in 15k to really make a difference.
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PrinceofClydes posted 1 year ago.
S'okay. I relish frank discussion with informed reasonable people.
Keep it coming.
:D
PoC
""Your ass looks fantastic. Are the kids in bed yet???"
- TonisTri. 10/2009
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jonovision_man posted 1 year ago.
UFTriGator wrote:
I know what drafting is. :)
Sorry... I thought you were questioning the 30% number. :)
UFTriGator wrote:
I was saying that going off the front isn't going to be a wasted effort that hardly works like you said. Most races (that Javier Gomez doesn't win) are won by someone who went off the front in either the bike or swim.
I've watched a few of these draft-legal races, and it seems to be quite different, they're all together after the bike. Did you watch the Olympics? The main competitors were all clumped together off the bike, and it came down to the run. The group that had pulled away were quickly caught.
And at that ultra-elite level that makes sense, you can't burn 30% more to cover the same ground for long and think you're going to hold the top guys in the sport behind you!
jono
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UFTriGator posted 1 year ago.
You're more likely to see them bunched up at WC races and the Olympics, just like you'd see in a WC or Olympic 10k (or marathon or 1500m). The pace is slower at big events (not just in triathlon) because there's more at stake and people don't want to take risks (again, not just triathlon).
If you watch a Continental Cup, most races are NOT won by someone running fastest out of a main pack, but by someone who's off the front (either by himself or with a small group). Even the World Cups are probably about 50/50 on whether or not the race is won with a breakaway. Go watch an entire season's worth of a Continental Circuit and see what happens.
Here are the results from PATCO so far this year (we still have Portland and San Francisco next month):
Vina del Mar:
Won from main pack.
Nevis:
4 guys off the front. Serrano (MEX) wins from a chase group of 3.
La Paz:
2 guys off the front in the swim. Serrano bridges up. They end up 2,3,4 (Manny Huerta from the USA ran them down), even though they didn't have the 2,3,4 run splits.
Valle de Bravo:
2 guys off the front (Rosas and Cervantes). Rosas attacks and then there were two guys riding solo....both off the front. Cervantes runs him down, but they still finish 1-2.
Salinas:
Won from main pack.
Mazatlan:
Matt Chrabot and Ben Collins off the front in the swim. They extend their lead over a pack of like 12 Mexicans and Matt holds on to win.
Geneva:
Cameron Dye and Brian Fleischmann drop Jarrod Shoemaker in the first 30 seconds of the bike. He ends up in the main pack while the two guys extend their lead on the bike and Brian wins.
Kelowna (last week):
5-man break gets away. One guy from the main field runs them down, but no one else can even catch the last place guy from the break.
Most of the time, everyone does NOT come off the bike together.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
I've noticed, during the womens triathlon at the olympics, that the bikes they used seemed to be road bikes with aerobars instead of tribikes. Is this correct? Is there any particular reason to use a road bike instead of a tribike?
K.