Chris Carmichael's "Food for Fitness" was pretty good, although I read it a few yrs ago now, so don't remember everything.

A good all-encompassing triathlon training book will have pretty detailed nutritional science along with some training strategy (ie... Triathletes training bible, going long (Iron-specific))

I like THE THRIVE DIET by Brendan Brazier: http://www.thrivediet.com/. He's a vegan pro triathlete with insights into ultra-healthy ways to fuel your body for endurance sports.

That's not food, that's what food eats. ;)

When you have a guy like Phelps downing fried egg sandwiches, it's hard to really claim there is one "right" diet... and I'd be surprised if many elite athletes only eat what you're suggesting.

jono

Ummm... this is the Health & Nutrition section of Trifuel... I think it's safe.

The majority of people could eat dirt and do better than what they are presently doing.

Sounds sort of like the Paleo diet except you get to eat meat. Their advocates claim that is the better way to eat.

And our government says I should follow the food pyramid. Here's what it thinks I should eat: My Plan

So how do I know which one is right?

So I propose the Tsilcyc Plan which is quite simple and it doesn't require any fanaticism or drastic changes. Are you ready? It's quite simple...

Strive to improve your eating. That's it.

Can I have my book money know or do I have to wait?

Why are more people not doing it? People simply like their beer, and their peanut butter, eggs, meat, and dairy. There is nothing wrong with that.

Phelps is 23 years old. You can do anything at that age. Look at athletes like Dana Torres, and Tiger woods....where as they age they realize that their bodies can no longer tolerate the abuse it could, what are they eating: raw organic fruits and vegetables.

Food quality matters even more when you are an athlete, precisely because you eat more volume than the regular folks, hence consume more toxins, when you eat toxic foods. This is part of the reason why athletes have such a high incidence of various cancers, and basically the same rate of heart disease and other diseases as the norm. All that exercise SHOULD give them some protection, but they lose their protection by eating poorly. This is probably why many of these athletes years later look so unhealthy.

Consider how many of his calories are used to digest all of this food. He surely would not need 12k calories if he cut the junk, most of the energy is spent digesting. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to overcome the poor food-combining, copious amounts of fat and protein, and complex carbohydrates. Not to mention the excessive load placed on his other systems and organs. Again, it is well known that athletes eating the standard fare have cancer and heart disease earlier than common people.

Fruits and vegetables is not fanatic or drastic, extreme or radical...it is ultra conservative. Radical is repeating things mindlessly without examining them. Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. Knowing the truth and doing otherwise. We do not live to eat, we eat to live. Fruits and vegetables, when you are hungry, until you are full does not get any simpler. And requires no drastic changes.

Haha, glad someone else seeks all the scams that are out there. Why prescribe a diet that requires supplementation? That's the biggest marketing trick out there: propose a problem and offer a solution.

Just eat fruits and vegetables. Really. If you don't believe me (or every other medical/health research that says: 'eat more fruits and vegetables' they don't just go so far as to say exclusively) do the math yourself. Download CRON-O-Meter for free and enter in what you eat. It will give you RDA macronutrients/vitamins/minerals/amino acids/and fats. An excellent tool for anyone who wants to get on the Tsilcyc Plan: Strive to improve your eating!!!!!!

Plus the more people that start eating more fruits and vegetables the cheaper it is for me :)

Make a good day!

Oh and why are more people not doing it this if it is 'the best'? It is hard to see through all the marketing, advertising, propaganda, lobbies, and control of information...cause really, who can make a buck off of telling someone to eat their bananas and apples and telling them to grow their own romaine?

Also, there are almost 7 billion people on the planet. Let's say that only 1.5 billion have even heard of the Olympics. Some percentage of them actually train to be in the Olympics. Roughly 15 thousand people have heard of eating fruits and vegetables exclusively. Some percentage of them actually train to be in the Olympics. 1,500,000,000 compared to 15,000. You do the math.
(Hint: for every person interested in training for the Olympics on fruits/veg there are at least 100,000 people to compete against who have yet to even hear of it.) And you want to know why you are not hearing about lots of folks competing in the Olympics like this? Most ones come to the realization towards the end of their careers, when they see that what they have been doing hasn't been working. But the odds, man, the odds....and even then, people say, "well, he is an exception."

Dara Torres was recently interviewed and included in her comments that she drinks milk, likes lean proteins such as turkey, and lasagna (turley lasagna of course). She is not eating just fruit and vegetables. Tiger Woods is a great golfer but the strains he puts on his body are by no means not the same as a triathlete or pro-level swimmer, and cannot be provided as a relevant example in this discussion. (Mary Lou Retton, a personal favorite of mine who still looks great, also a meat-eater).

I did not know this. Where is this statistic regarding cancer rates in athletes vs non-athletes?

In addition the suggestion that eating poorly cancels out the protection of exercise, well cannot come to terms with that on. Oncologists have stated that exercise (rather, an individual's past exercise habits) may help with recovery from treatments such as chemotherapy, but not provide protection from getting cancer iteslf.

Third, athletes in later years generally can thank over-exposure to sun and our favorite free radical issues to an unhealthy look. As a matter of fact I know some unwell looking organic-eating vegetarians now that I think about it.

I am curious as to your qualifications?

Eating the best should never be a social/political/philosophical choice as none of those reasons to eat should ever undermine ones health. I am not talking about philosophical reasons here. I am talking health and nutrition.

Humans can eat anything. We can eat meat, dairy, soy, corn, bark, grass, you name it. It does not mean it is efficient. Organic and vegetables contain toxins, yes. In comparison to meat / dairy it is little to none. You can be pretty certain that if a food has to be cooked/refined that it is not people food. Agriculture and cooking has only been around for 10,000 years. A fingernails worth of our time here on earth. Less than 150 years have we been industrially refining foods for consumption. You can judge what you put into your mouth yourself as if it was designed for us.

The goal of a healthy diet is to achieve optimal nutrition while maintaining a healthy weight, through a diet based on a variety of unrefined, unprocessed, intact, whole plant foods, regardless of whether one wants to do it on a raw food, a vegan, a vegetarian, or a more traditional diet. The goal is to ensure optimal intake of all known nutrients (vitamins, minerals, essential amino acids, essential fats, fiber, etc) based on our best knowledge through a variety of real food, while at the same time limiting any item we know to be a health hazard (ie, salt, saturated fat, hydrogenated fat, trans fat, refined sugars, flours,cholesterol, etc).

The media and medical community is financed to a large degree by ad dollars from meat, dairy, food processors, and pharmaceutical companies. Each of these industries have a vested interest in keeping people sick and needing pills..from the food they eat, it is a vicious cycle. They will not bite the hand that feeds them. Their "research" is used to gain data (the best data money can buy) to support their vested interests...and grease their industry's gears. Heaven forbid that research should prove what common sense already saw in our first 99.9% of time here on earth. Money makes their world go around. They say eat a balanced diet including dairy and lean meats. Do the research yourself. Find out how cows milk is handled by the human body, what happens to fats and proteins when heated, how they are digested. The Dairy Council has the American public eating out of the palm of its hand. It is the worst food group on the shelf.

Don't just side with what the majority, mob rule is saying. Prove it to yourself. This is one case where "safety in numbers" surely does not apply.

Statistically American Adults will be 100% overweight in 2048. It's not that people are not listening to the dietary standards, it's that the dietary standards are wrong. Asthma, acne, diabetes, heard disease, cancer (to name a few) is just the norm now....but were non existent 150 years ago. But who is going to step forward and tell the American public that there is no room for grains and animal products for a healthy diet? It is what our country runs on second to BigPharma. People are not connecting the dots.

Do the research, and at least be aware of it for yourself. A person eating a plant based diet would have nothing to gain nutritionally by consuming animal products. If you must consume lean meats/dairy that is fine and a personal choice, but my suggestion would be to consume them with a plant based diet and they should be organic grass finished cattle, pork, dairy and free range chicken. The milk should be consumed raw. Get it from a reliable source.

"But if these things are so unhealthy than why don't I feel bad when I consume them"

Yet. And one may not notice the symptoms if they are used to them every day. It says a lot about the resilience of the human body. We are magnificent. In the same way snake handlers slowly increase the dosage of poison until they can handle several lethal doses we have been medicated by these foods from an early age. Simply, we have a tolerance. But it is evident with our nations health that with those choices come chronic health problems down the road.

Ask questions :)

Society is not doing things in moderation, that's why they are the way they are. Overeating and overspending are not what I would consider moderation. That's excessive.

Our bodies are made up of cells. It doesn't understand commitment, it doesn't think, nor does it reward us as you suggest below.

Using your analogy, I suppose when you to talk a woman for the first time, you just propose marriage.

Argue your point on topic not through analogies.

Since you're a student of evolution, why would we evolve the ability to eat and process meat if not to do just that? We are not herbivores for a reason, meat is a very good source of a lot of things humans need.

Besides, your "facts" need a check-up. Chimpanzees, like humans, are omnivores. They eat meat... including insects, and even small animals. And humans a lot more than 1% of our diet, even back through history.

This is really gross... but it's a picture of a chimp eating a MONKEY:
http://www.tolweb.org/tree/ToLimages/chimp_pred3.250a.jpg

So if you want to model your diets after chimps... be my guest... I think it's pretty nasty though...

And *every* mammal eats dairy, by definition.

jono

Were you aware they ate monkeys?

I find your posts have a lot of claims, but as some of them are quite obviously false (ie. "Humans have been around for 200,000 years. 99% of their diet consisted of plant food") I'm inclined to doubt most of them, barring a source.

jono

Those with tastebuds eat steak. :)

jono

Others believe humans are meant to be herbivores, even though we are clearly omnivores. :P

Anyway, I think I'm done with this thread... you haven't convinced me in the least.

jono

Ummmm..... no thanks. Been there, ate like that, almost died of anemia (seriously, hospitalized with anemia, made me miss my first Ironman). Having been a vegetarian for 18 years of my 22 in the sport of triathlon, and a raw-foods vegan for some of that time as a triathlete I can tell you with all sincerity that this diet does NOT work for all people.

As I live in a town with both a high percentage of athletes and a high percentage of raw-foodists, vegans, and vegetarians, I've also had the privilege of watching several of my friends nutritionally implode in this manner. Raw fruits and vegetables do not give everything that all bodies need, especially when it comes to B-12, which only comes from animal products and iron, both pretty crucial for that important stuff like blood that athletes need.

I did a lot of reading on this subject after my experiences, the near-fatal anemia, and as I was trying to come to terms with my body's need for animals foods and trying to reconcile that with my previous vegetarian beliefs. What I discovered was that vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia as well as nervous and digestive system damage; most, if not all, vegans have impaired B12 metabolism and every study of vegan groups I have seen has demonstrated low to dangerously low vitamin B12 concentrations.

Bottom line: this athlete is much healthier on a diet of plenty of raw organic fruits and veggies, plus organic, local grass-fed meats, plus free-range eggs from my own chickens and organic raw milk from a friend's goats. But each to their own. If you can thrive and compete on only fruits and veggies, good for you. I just don't buy that this is best for everyone, definitely not in my experience.

Your points are valid, Ironmom. However I have done my research as well. I am sorry for your experience but anemia is very rare. People love to hear good news about their bad habits, which is why it is usually heard about when it happens. In 1999 there were 118 deaths due to iron deficiency anemia. Do we hear about the top 2 causes for death in America stated every time someone advises a diet based on meat and how we should second guess that recomendation as 70% of of people in the U.S will die from Heart Disease(those that don't probably got cancer)? #1: over 910,000 a year die from Heart Disease(can be completely avoided by eating vegan, direct link to animal products, tons of research out there about this), #2: over 553,888 a year from Cancer(linked to meat consumption due to acidity and improper digestion, again countless studies, several where the scientists were actually able to turn cancer on and off). So B12, yes, is a valid concern....consuming animal products is far far graver.

Also, just because a person is vegan does not mean they are consuming a balanced diet. I have anywhere from 4-6lbs of fruit and 1-2 heads of romaine/lettuce a day, fresh from my garden, with occasional nuts/seeds and I have done the math, I am getting more than enough of everything I need. More people should chart their nutritional needs as well. Also, since we are on the topic, my B12, and iron levels have both rose, I have been following my progress. Since you seem to have an interest in learning I suggest you read the 80/10/10 Diet, it is unlike any other book I have read on the topic of health, some very good things to consider.

You are spot on about organic free range, grass fed, and raw goats milk. Animal products of these quality are like no other, the rest are blatantly toxic. However, they are still animal products. I understand each person has individual needs, however scientific studies(by the boatload) and logic clearly point that we have no need for animal products in our diet.

A tid bit on B12:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

Yeah, not to mention that the link between heart disease and eating meat has not been conclusively proven once you remove factory-farmed hormone-loaded meats from the studies. Now I'll grant that eating feedlot cattle loaded with disease, antibiotics, and growth hormones is not healthy, but eating grass-fed meats like our ancestors did is another animal altogether and far from being a death sentence, it's one of the healthiest things you can do for your body.

My family comes from hardy German farm stock who never saw a strudel or a sausage that they didn't like. And they all have lived into their 100s. Some of my relatives who were born in sod houses on the American prairie are still alive! My great-grandma who died at 100 when I was in my 30's was the penultimate meat-and-potatoes cook.

And then there's been studies coming out that people with high cholesterol live longest while people with low cholesterol die earlier. And chubby people live longer than people of "normal weight" with skinny people and obese people both living even shorter.

Bring on the bacon!

Well, I imagine we could disagree on this until the cow's come home, LOL. Suffice it to say that I've got 20+ year of vegetarian living in which my health was continuously compromised. And 20 years of living as an omnivore both before and after that where I've been perfectly healthy. All the theory in the world doesn't really hold much water if it doesn't work in practice.

I've got literally dozens of formerly vegan friends who experienced all of the health problems I did and sometimes much more (including neurological damage). I have yet to meet one single vegan who has been living that way healthily for over a decade (and as I said, I live in a town with more vegans per capita than anywhere else in the U.S.) If it was really a "one in a million" chance that there were health drawbacks to veganism, then people around here sure are bucking the odds. I've heard all the theory, I've been there and done that. It even took me 13 years after I almost died from my nutritional deficiencies to finally admit what my body was telling me all along: it wasn't healthy or sustainable for my body to eat that way.

Believe me, with so many vegans (including some of my closest friends over the years) I've heard all these arguments before. I've just seen it play out quite differently from the vegan theory, time and time again.

So again, if it works for you, fine. But I'll feel free to state my opinion that I don't think it's wise advice to people to eat that way, especially not athletes who are pushing their bodies to the ultimate. I've never seen it work in the long run for anyone, so that's my personal anecdotal, non-theoretical opinion.

Wow... thanks for sharing that, I think a lot of people feel they owe it to their political/social beliefs not to speak up against a movement that sells itself so well as environmental, natural, etc. I hope others can learn from your experiences.

jono

Hehe, you can't catch up on this thread...way too much content. I've enjoyed just watching the back and forth though. Well debated, you both get A's

The list of distinguished dairy and meat eaters is FAR longer. :)

jono

Here is MY opinion, incase anyone cares:

1. You can only do the best with the information you have
2. Research/information is constantly changing, what is "good" for you today may be "bad" for you tomorrow.
3. Eat a diet you believe in, whether it's vegan, veggie, or not if it works for you
4. Life is meant to be enjoyed. Eating a pice of pizza or having some ice cream once in a while is fine. I cannot imagine what a dreary freaking life it would be if I didn't. Yes I have about 10 extra pounds on me, but you know I am happy, and have done 2 IM races. More than most people can say.

You could be schmucked by a bus crossing the street tomorrow an then who cares how "healthy" you ate for 20 years ?

Oh and in answer to the original question I too like Nancy Clark's "Sports Nutrition Guidebook"

A couple of thoughts on this:

We're talking about two different concepts here, veganism and vegetarianism. I would not hesitate to agree that people can eat well on a vegetarian diet, because the omega-3s, B-12, amino acids, and other nutrients that people receive eating eggs and dairy are plenty for most folks to thrive. Especially if they eat dairy and eggs from truly free-ranging animals (not what the commercial animal farms call free-ranging).

Veganism is a whole 'nother ballgame, and I have yet to see anyone thrive on a vegan diet for any length of time. Nor are most of the people on that list of famous folks known to have ever been vegan, just vegetarian and additionally many of those were for short periods of time. Since what we're discussing here is veganism - existing only on fruits and vegetables - then most of this isn't all that relevant to that discussion. There is even debate about whether or not Ghandi was truly vegetarian as Hindus from that area ate enough insect matter in their grains to supply their B-12 requirements. There are many cases of vegan Hindus from India who migrated to the UK and then came down with anemia within a few years due to the fact that the food processing was much more refined and they were no longer getting their B-12 needs met through insects.

Additionally, Einstein was most likely a vegetarian for only the last year of his life. Before that, he seems to have toyed with the idea but been unable to make it work in reality: "Although I have been prevented by outward circumstances from observing a strictly vegetarian diet, I have long been an adherent to the cause in principle. " and "I have always eaten animal flesh with a somewhat guilty conscience."

Benjamin Franklin was apparently a vegetarian in his teenage years, but later returned to eating fish certainly and perhaps other meats as well. A quote from his autobiography: "Then thought I, if you eat one another, I don’t see why we mayn’t eat you. So I din’d upon Cod very heartily and continu’d to eat with other People, returning only now and than occasionally to a vegetable Diet"

Thoreau writes in Walden about cooking and eating fish, etc. etc.

I think it makes sense that people who think and feel deeply would feel strongly about animal cruelty and vegetarianism (especially since the treatment of animals for food was especially barbaric in many historical societies, just as it is in much of our own society). But for many, this depth of feeling and emotion is eventually tempered with the needs of their own bodies, as it was for Einstein, Franklin, and others, which is exactly what we've been discussing here: philosophical needs vs. bodily needs.