Hed 3 + Disc or Jet 60/90 set up?
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jsk85 posted 7 weeks ago.
My thoughts are that I wish I had this problem...racing wheels seem to be somewhere far off in the future for me.
But, if it were me I'd go the Jet 60/90 combo since they are more versatile...I'm not positive on the speed difference numbers, but versatility wins out over subtle speed changes in my mind.
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tsilcyc posted 7 weeks ago.
If you're looking for a versatile combo, the 60/90 is the way to go. I've got my eye on that Jet Disc though. :)
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Away posted 7 weeks ago.
I've never ran a disc nor a deep section wheel so I really don't have any idea what to expect anyway. I'm really hoping there's a discernable difference from my SL's!
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tsilcyc posted 7 weeks ago.
One thing to consider... if you're going to get a PowerTap hub at some point, the HED wheels need to be drilled specifically for that hub. I don't rememember specifically what the difference is but I know if you buy the stock wheel and then want a PT, you'll need a new wheel.
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Away posted 7 weeks ago.
No powertap for me right now or in the near future.
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kylie posted 7 weeks ago.
Away wrote:
No powertap for me right now or in the near future.
I've gotta say it... I really really believe there are more benefits to a PowerTap than race wheels. Completely changes how you are able to train.
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tsilcyc posted 7 weeks ago.
And while I am considering a PT setup and I also agree with what you're saying, there's something to be said for doing it the old fashioned way. When you don't have the tools (toys), you are forced to figure it out by yourself. I am really good at determining what pace I'm running without the GPS. I am also good at knowing how hard to push on the bike without compromising my run. Does that mean that a powermeter wouldn't help fine tune that? No... but I think it's good to learn to race by feel before moving to a powermeter.
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MarkyV posted 7 weeks ago.
tsilcyc wrote:
but I think it's good to learn to race by feel before moving to a powermeter.
Do you also believe that you learn from mistakes? In this case pacing mistakes?
You don't learn anything new from mistakes... all you learn is what to subjectively try NOT to do the next time. Get a Powermeter and with the aid of KNOWING HOW TO USE IT race a perfectly executed race... then you will know how it feels. Time and again i read reports of people who blew up on the run but... "Have no idea how it happen because (they) paced the bike so well" WRONG! They f'd up on the bike and paid for it. Get it right the first time (a powermeter is great for this) and you won't have to play trial and error all the time.
What I told an athlete this weekend... "how many times are you going to race this year (i.e. the frequency with which she will ride her race wheels)."
"4 times" i get back...
"how many times are you going to ride your bike?"
"150-200"
"and each one of those rides could be power equipped... telling you more and teaching you more... and making you faster... faster.
MarkyV Racing and Coaching
Powertap Dealer: Ask me how you can get rolling with power
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tsilcyc posted 7 weeks ago.
I've read Hunter Allen's book, I understand the benefits of training with power. But I think it's a good idea to learn how to train by feel before you move to something like a power meter, gps, or whatever else.
And you're a PowerTap Dealer...
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kylie posted 7 weeks ago.
Marky's a coach first, and a PT dealer second. Actually, he is a dealer because he believes in it. I did let him know about this thread since I couldn't put into words exactly why I think power should come first (which was a decision I made this last year -- before picking him as a coach -- and no, I didn't even buy through him). But I will try to get across my feelings on it, too.
I think it is hard to "train by feel" at the right levels without anything to compare those levels too. With a PM I have found that my easy on the bike was often too easy, and my hard too hard. It felt fine, I felt good in races, and I improved my results. But I didn't improve as easily as I am with power.
It's also about the return on your investment: do you want wheels that help you be faster those 2 races you do, or do you want a tool that helps you become faster yourself? For me, it is about improving myself -- I'd rather get stronger and faster than find a race-day-only way to shave a couple seconds.
I think I'd compare it to buying a wetsuit before hiring a coach/learning to swim. Of course not a perfect analogy, but basically it is picking technology before improving the self.
I do know this thread was about race wheels -- that said, whenever people put race wheels before a PM I strongly encourage them to think about it since they are the same basic price point. Been there, done that, and couldn't be more pleased with the PM I ended up with.
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Away posted 7 weeks ago.
If it's all the same, I was really interested in some responses regarding the wheels. The power meter doesn't interest me at this time, thank you though.
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kylie posted 7 weeks ago.
Yeah, I figured -- I just feel I need to let people know that it is same price range and all that good stuff since I honestly feel it is a mistake many people make. Not meaning to tread-jack :)
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tsilcyc posted 7 weeks ago.
Away wrote:
I've never ran a disc nor a deep section wheel so I really don't have any idea what to expect anyway. I'm really hoping there's a discernable difference from my SL's!
From fastest to slowest... Disc, H3, Jet 90, Jet 60, yours. Deeper wheels catch more air and can be hard to handle depending on your size. I'm 5'8, 150lbs and I've been in the wind with the 60/90 combo and have only noticed them on a really WINDY day.
The more wheels you have, the more flexibility you get but for an all around pair, you really can't beat the 60/90. And the new Jet C2's are even cooler. :)
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Away posted 7 weeks ago.
I forgot to mention they would be the Jet C2's.
I guess I was just after some data on just how much faster (if measureable) they H3/disc would be over the 60/90 since the latter option does seem more practical to me.
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MarkyV posted 7 weeks ago.
tsilcyc wrote:
I've read Hunter Allen's book, I understand the benefits of training with power. But I think it's a good idea to learn how to train by feel before you move to something like a power meter, gps, or whatever else.
If you have no basis for what a feeling is supposed to "feel" like, i.e. benchmarking yourself, then how are you supposed to know?
A good friend of mine trains with nothing now (not even a watch)... but he still basis a lot of his "feelings" on hard wattage numbers from what he learned over the 4 years that he rode with an SRM.
tsilcyc wrote:
And you're a PowerTap Dealer...
So buy an SRM or quarq... insert the word power meter wherever I have the word powertap. I don't care what the gadget is (ergomo, polar and ibike are NOT powermeters... they are guesstimeters) power is power.
MarkyV Racing and Coaching
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UFTriGator posted 7 weeks ago.
FWIW:
I trained two years ago on feel and usually averaged somewhere around 23 mph for sprint races.
Last year I trained by HR and usually averaged somewhere around 25 mph for sprint races.
This year I've been training by power (CompuTrainer) and the one sprint I've done I averaged 27 mph.
I've always raced with a disk and deep front wheel. If I raced a sprint tomorrow on my training wheels, I'd be going several mph faster than I would have two years ago with race wheels and training by feel.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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tsilcyc posted 7 weeks ago.
Away wrote:
I forgot to mention they would be the Jet C2's.I guess I was just after some data on just how much faster (if measureable) they H3/disc would be over the 60/90 since the latter option does seem more practical to me.
It really depends on conditions. I don't know if you've seen this already...
http://www.hedcycling.com/technical/yaw-calculator.php
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I'm trying to narrow down my wheel purchase. I currently train/race on my Ksyrium SL's which are relatively light although not terribly aero. I've decided to get a second set of wheels and have narrowed it down to Hed's. Now I'm just trying to debate between two options.
-Hed3 front with the new Jet Disc rear. (2020 grams)
or
-Jet 60 front, Jet 90 rear. (1750 grams)
From the endless opinions and info online it would seem that the disc setup is almost always fastest. I guess between those two options I was just curious really how much faster it would be or if it's worth it over the deep dish set up? (sprint/olympic distance right now)
My logic goes that if the 60/90 setup is relatively close in speed to the 3/disc then it would make more sense to get that. More versatile, always legal, I could train on them plenty, lighter, cheaper, etc. But if the 3/disc setup is just hands down the fastest maybe it makes sense to have them just for races and keep training on my SL's. FWIW, I even prefer the not as aggressive looks of the 60/90 to the race ready 3/disc.
Any thoughts on this?