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Cycle Design

TriDesign's picture
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started by TriDesign on June 23, 2008

I am completely new to the world of triathlons. I am a design student at the College for Creative Studies in Detroit, MI. I am currently in a studio where we can design pretty much anything we want, and i chose something to do with Triathlons. I am really interested in doing a Tri bike, because of their concern with efficiency and aero. I have an idea for an elliptical pedal path to try and save muscles used for running, and to save energy overall. it would be a vertically oriented elipse which you would pedal on allowing for more extention of the leg, and by using this in concert with an infinitely adjustable CVT, one could accomlpish better efficiency especially in hilly areas where shifting gears is common. Any ideas or suggestions having to do with cycling, running or swimming would be welcomed as i am very new to the sport. Thanks.

TriSooner's picture
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TriSooner posted 21 weeks ago.

TriDesign wrote:
elliptical pedal path

For ideas, Rotor Cranks has eliptical cranks and chain rings:

http://www.rotorcranks.com/s1-q-rings.shtml
http://www.rotorcranks.com/s1-rs4xrd2.shtml

iamtb13's picture
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iamtb13 posted 21 weeks ago.

Maybe a water helmet with GPS built in that beeps when I veer off target on my swim line.

Milesofsmiles15's picture
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Milesofsmiles15 posted 21 weeks ago.

Not 100% on topic but, I'm currently an aerospace engineering student and my absolute dream job when i graduate would be to work for a tri company.

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JMA posted 21 weeks ago.

Also something a little older - Biopace

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Anton posted 21 weeks ago.

Milesofsmiles15 wrote:
Not 100% on topic but, I'm currently an aerospace engineering student and my absolute dream job when i graduate would be to work for a tri company.

(Turning on "Dad" mode) Aerospace and you want to work for a tri company? I'd give up ...well, a lot to have the smarts and drive to become an aerospace engineer and do something cool ...like actually go into space! One of the great regrets of my life is that I will never be able to travel in space...you, my friend, have a shot at that. Become an astronaut and tinker with tri stuff on the side....
("Dad" mode off...)

Back on topic...I've met a number of folks over the years who have tried Biopace or Rotor Rings and had knee problems, they felt, because of them...If you could come up with something workable, that actually increased effeciency, that would be great. The idea has been around for years..but it never takes off.

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TriDesign's picture
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TriDesign posted 21 weeks ago.

iamtb13 wrote:
Maybe a water helmet with GPS built in that beeps when I veer off target on my swim line.

I had an idea for a Timex branded watch to be worn around the forearm rather than wrist that would perform the same function only through vibration or through slight pressure using fingernail sized gps device. It would also let you know if you were properly pacing youself, average speed, etc. It would also use a new technology to tell you your hydration levels letting you know if your in need of water.
But back to the bike idea. i was thinking something a lot different that the current gear driven bikes. My idea would be a fixed elliptical path, and have all the "transmission" bits be held elsewhere, either within the ellipse or in the hub of the rear wheel. Here is a quick example of what im thinking. I am basicly wondering if you think that having a tall elliptical pedaling path would be advantageous instead of a slightly squished circle/ completely circular pedaling path as we see in todays bikes. So your feet actually follow an elliptical path not just driving an elliptical gear.

TriDesign's picture
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TriDesign posted 21 weeks ago.

ok image didnt upload last time, trying again...

ChunkyB's picture
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ChunkyB posted 21 weeks ago.

I don't see how you would have an elliptical pedal path unless you have telescoping cranks or something. An elliptical crank is one thing, but a pedal path would require cranks without a fixed length, which I'm guessing would kill your stiffness and power transfer. Your thoughts?

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CGroth posted 21 weeks ago.

i live an hour from detroit, so if you want to design me a kick ass tri bike for free i will be your test dummy...would prefer sram red and zipps, but will accept lesser varieties... ;)

TriDesign's picture
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TriDesign posted 21 weeks ago.

dont worry about the engineering i have that all thought out, the design wouldnt even involve gears i just want to know if it would be advantageous to have the elliptical pedal path, so you could have a longer pedal stroke and less effort wasted at crank angles where less power can be put to the rear tire. so your leg would be doing more of a vertical motion rather that circular. The idea behind it is that there is less energy being wasted to move the pedals laterally and more of the energy can be used in a vertical motion. By doing this you could also use less of the muscle groups involved in running thereby saving certain muscle groups for the final stage of the Tri. The design is almost fully about rider efficiency, and performance.
I also want to know what specific muscles are most worn out by cycling, and which of those major muscle groups are used in running. I really want to make this more about the Triathlon rather than cycling on its own (You guys and gals, are the masters of endurance and performance). I would rather design a bike that not only helps during the cycling stage, but also by saving certain muscles help you on the running stage.

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Milesofsmiles15 posted 21 weeks ago.

Anton wrote:
Milesofsmiles15 wrote:
Not 100% on topic but, I'm currently an aerospace engineering student and my absolute dream job when i graduate would be to work for a tri company.

(Turning on "Dad" mode) Aerospace and you want to work for a tri company? I'd give up ...well, a lot to have the smarts and drive to become an aerospace engineer and do something cool ...like actually go into space! One of the great regrets of my life is that I will never be able to travel in space...you, my friend, have a shot at that. Become an astronaut and tinker with tri stuff on the side....
("Dad" mode off...)

lol i considered saying fetish job instead of dream job, as in if somehow the money was the same and it was as stable, etc. one of those "if money didn't matter and you could just do whatever you want for the rest of your life" things. heck hopefully when i am done, as you said, i know enough to be able to do that sort of thing on my own time (as well as free windtunnel access ;) )

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danpatgal posted 21 weeks ago.

I would check out the Rotocranks Trisooner mentions. The concept is just as you've mentioned, to give legs the most ergonomical motion. I had Biopace on my bicycle for years, and never really noticed it, until I started riding a lot and trying to go faster - and finding it hard to go fast, not liking it. When I switched away from the Biopace to round, I felt so much smoother, more comfortable, and faster. Of course, Biopace is the opposite of the Rotocranks (the eliplse is oriented horizontally - the idea was to allow momentum to get you through the top/bottom of the ring, though it never really worked, for Shimano or myself). So, the rotocranks may have some mechanical advantage. As far as automatic gearing, I guess it would be a hard sell for racing since the resistance would be fixed, so on days where you're feeling strong, the auto transmission would be holding you back, on days you feel weak, you're not able to spin. If you could adjust the resistance (or desired cadence) on the automatic at will, then maybe that might work. That, however, sounds a lot more complicated and heavier than the simple cog and derailer system on today's bikes. But, for non racing applications, that would be cool (there is such a bike on the market: http://www.landriderbikes.com/features.html), I just don't know how well it works in practice.

TriDesign's picture
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TriDesign posted 21 weeks ago.

ya my idea for the auto transmission would that it would be just like a CVT transmission, but that the resistance would be adjustable on the handlebars via a small shifter type lever.
But back to the elliptical pedal motion. its hard for me to imagine what it would be like to pedal in an elliptical motion. Im just wondering that even if you could train yourself to go fast with an eliptical pedaling motion would it be beneficial endurance wise when it came to the running stage after. In other words could it in theory save the muscles used primarily in running, more so than the current circular pedaling motion does? I just want to make the design based around the triathlon where its not just focused around biking. I like the idea that you have to get off your bike after riding 112 miles to then run a marathon. And considering it is such a toll on your body, i want to try and make it that much more efficient and performance enhancing for the rider. So the theory behind the oval motion is that it could save muscles that you will later have to use in the running stage.

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Sully800 posted 19 weeks ago.

Running is primarily dominated by hamstrings, and normally cycling uses a nice mix of hamstrings and quads. To save the hammys, tri bikes give a more agressive position and a steeper seattube angle which forces you to use your quads more and your hamstrings less. I believe that is the type of info you are looking for?

I'm very interested in how this elliptical pedaling motion would work because I can't really picture it without a better explanation.