The Distance Triathlete VS. The Olympic One
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TryScott posted 26 weeks ago.
I'm not sure about performance, but you have to consider the other aspects. You know, the stuff that makes the sport fun.
When training for a longer distance, for multiple reasons (travel, time, cost, etc...), you won't want to sign up for a lot of races in a summer. So if you only sign up for one race, that cost $500 entry, think of all the things that can cause a bad day. Catch a cold a few days before, friend/family has something happen that causes you to stay home, leave later than expected for race, or cancel, etc... You're really putting all your eggs in one basket.
This year I'm signed up for 6 olympic races, and they cost $300 for the package. None of them are more than 150 miles from my home. Someday I plan on doing and IM, but right now I can't wait for the this season to start.
As a crazy comparasion, do you think the 10k and marathon athletes in this summer's games will look at the 400m and 1600m people as a "wuss doing the shorter races?"
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TriSooner posted 26 weeks ago.
tholosophy wrote:
From my observations and experience, the two distances (IM vs Oly) are so different and the training regimen so philisophically distinct, that IM training does not translate to Oly speed.
I was curious what the picture would look like when an IM trained triathlete drops down and does an Olympic distance. Do they eaisly wipe the floor clean, or are the two races so different that someone who trains for the Olympic distance will finish faster than the IM trained.
My opinion is that IM training revolves mostly around time spent training. If you look at many IM programs they speak of 2 hr runs and 5 hr bikes. They key being volume and consistency. They don't spend a lot of time hapring on track speed workouts or bike intervals. Speed is a secondary consideration for most age-group IMers. Case in point: People talk about finishing in certain hour time periods (12hr finish, 13hr finish, "I just want to be under X."). You don't hear Oly racers talk about a "2hr finish". They get more specific. Very specific.
Olymipic training (of which I have done zero Oly-specific training and only 1 Oly race) seems to me to be geared more toward speed. The 1500m swim, 40k time trial bike, the 10k run, all are perfect measures of speed. The one Oly I did was sub:30 swim; 1hr bike, :45 run . . . and I was totally average and mid-pack. I couldn't believe it. I killed myself for a very unremarkable finish place.
I don't think that IM trained athletes will show up at an Oly and kick ass. Typically. Sure it is possible, but for me, in takes me 500 yards in the water, 20 or 30 miles on the bike, and 6 to 8 miles into the run to feel like I am in the groove. In other words, I never get comfortable in a pace in an Oly and that is because of the type of training IM folks do.
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TriSooner posted 26 weeks ago.
TryScott wrote:
Changing your comparison a bit, would a marathoner be able to show up at a 10k and win? Probably not. I'd put my money on an any Olympic-qualified 10k specialist over any top Kenyan marathoner.
As a crazy comparasion, do you think the 10k and marathon athletes in this summer's games will look at the 400m and 1600m people as a "wuss doing the shorter races?"
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burnman posted 26 weeks ago.
Simple analogy: 10k and marathoners don't compare their splits. These are completely different races with completely different training requirements and personal commitments. I like certain aspects about both, and you have to admire those that are successful at either level. If you train for ultra distance, imagine spending 2 hours (nonstop) above your current anaerobic threshold. If you train for short distance, imagine spending 10+ hours (nonstop) at a high aerobic level. Put yourself in both pairs of shoes before judging. Either may fit, but chances are they won't be equally comfortable over the long haul.
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Iron Dan posted 26 weeks ago.
I don't think that it breaks down in triathlons the same way it does in track and field. A sprint is still about an hour long race, that is still an endurance event even though you can do it at a higher intensity than you can a HIM or IM. So I think it wholly depends on the skill levels of the athletes involved. I look at it this way. If one of the worlds best marathon runners came out and did a local Thanksgiving Day 5k, he would definitely mop the floor with everyone. However, if an elite marathoner came out and raced with elite 5k runners, he would most likely hold his own and who knows what would happen, but in that case, I would give the advantage to the elite 5k runners, but I still think that the marathon runner would hold his own and not be embarrassed.
Lets face it, if Normann Stadler came out and did a local Olympic race, he would win. However, if he did a race against the elite Olympic distance athletes, I would still give him a shot, but anything can happen. However, if it were someone of my abilities that is making the step down to the Olympic race, the Olympic race focused competitor would win.
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cayman posted 26 weeks ago.
2 distinct distances, 2 distinct training methods. I IM train and for me endurance is the key, speed if I can get it is an added benefit. Most that I know who train for olympics train with speed as a key part of their training plan; power thru the bike and still have legs to hammer a 10K. IMs you want to pace the bike so you have enough left in the legs to finish the marathon, 2 different scenarios. I'm not fast, that's why I've chosen endurance and I'm certainly not going to destroy all in any olympic--I might get you in the swim though.
It's not a matter of which distance is best, it's only which you choose to train for and to train hard for. I've never seen any wuss' out there at any distance-- never feel that a shorter distance is less of a race. A triathlete is a triathlete no matter the distance.
john
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
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tholosophy posted 26 weeks ago.
Thanks for the replies everyone! You all confirmed my suspiciions, I am at the point where I am trying to figure out a benchmark, what is good, what is slow, what is fast. From a first-timer, all triathlons look long to me, even an Olympic. But I understand that when training, high speed/endurance is what defines you in the shorter races, and pace/endurance defines you in the longer ones. I never consider sprinters wusses, I just considered them different, that they were built different, and that no matter how hard I trained I could not be a sprinter, and no matter how hard they trained, they could not equal my times in mid-distance/distance(person depending, just a generalization).
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jsk85 posted 26 weeks ago.
Iron Dan wrote:
However, if he did a race against the elite Olympic distance athletes, I would still give him a shot.
I would have to disagree...I think he would get destroyed, pro level oly specialists and IM specialists train in such different ways from what I've seen, I don't think he'd even be competitive.
Why don't you see the big name IMer's even attempting for their olympic teams...I would have to imagine at least a few of them would want to represent thier country against the world, but it's not the race they're geared toward, so they can't just go out against the best oly distance guys even in their own country and expect to have a legitimate chance to qualify.
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UFTriGator posted 26 weeks ago.
ITU athletes won world championships in both Olympic and 70.3 format last year.
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-Matt
Not fast enough.
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deepbluex posted 26 weeks ago.
Michellie Jones started out as a silver medalist in the olympics in triathlon and went on to win Kona. The two distances are vastly different but there seems to be some crossover in the abilities.
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jsk85 posted 26 weeks ago.
You can cross-over...just not immediately...I wouldn't expect that kind of success in the same season
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fastdog5 posted 26 weeks ago.
It took Jones a year & she trains full time.
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kkocan posted 26 weeks ago.
I did an olympic last year smack dab in the middle of IM training. It was hard to try to get my body to go fast, or to let it all out on the course and let my HR get above #'s that I know would have made for a very long IM day.
I finished with a respectable time (2:12) but I never felt like I was pushing as hard as those around me and I know that within a few minutes of finishing I felt mostly recovered and by later that day felt like I had just done a normal workout. I know that if I were training for olympic or sprint now I would be doing much more interval, speed and strength work.
But I do know that a 1hr sprint can hurt a whole lot, but it's a different hurt than an IM.
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Kwschs posted 26 weeks ago.
To be honest, although it's two different types of training, listen to this
I know living in Florida, Spencer Smith alone who lives in my neighborhood, is a pro triathlete, having done ironmans at pro race paces, etc. (if that made sense lol). But when he does sprints/and olympic distances, he used them as a speed workout (progress indicator also).
In those short courses, he would always take first place, and had incredible time, so that goes to show that imo although the training is diffrent, people pushing IM training should be able to push short course really hard, although I dont think its near the same the other way around!
My 2 cents, :D
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psychosyd posted 26 weeks ago.
a lot of IM athletes do pretty well at the OLY distance, simply because they are fitter, but there is are real physiological differences. It is like when I train with my track kids they kill me on the short stuff, but when I take them out for 10km they have no chance. A well trained OLY distance athlete will usually demolish an IM athlete at the OLY distance. It seems that OLY distance guys can transfer to the longer distances and within a year do well quickly. Not sure why.
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UFTriGator posted 26 weeks ago.
Kwschs wrote:
To be honest, although it's two different types of training, listen to thisI know living in Florida, Spencer Smith alone who lives in my neighborhood, is a pro triathlete, having done ironmans at pro race paces, etc. (if that made sense lol). But when he does sprints/and olympic distances, he used them as a speed workout (progress indicator also).
In those short courses, he would always take first place, and had incredible time, so that goes to show that imo although the training is diffrent, people pushing IM training should be able to push short course really hard, although I dont think its near the same the other way around!
My 2 cents, :D
Spencer is a short-course athlete. Look what he was doing in '93 and '94. Also, winning a local sprint isn't much of an indication of talent (even though he is definitely fast....especially on the bike). And he lost pretty badly last weekend.
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-Matt
Not fast enough.
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RV posted 26 weeks ago.
It is easier to add endurance than it is to get fast.
RV
It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss
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theShiba posted 26 weeks ago.
Here's the deal... without addressing the specific distances, and hypothetical situations of individual athletes, there is definitely a difference between the distances, and the training. Your body literally adapts itself physiologically to do longer distances vs. sprints. Studies are finding that you can actually lose explosive (fast-twitch) power as you gain endurance (slow-twitch) muscle.
I think one thing that is coming into play here without being directly addressed is an issue that Steve Prefontaine would love. At the end of the day, at the elite level, the winner will be whoever is willing to suffer the most. The athlete that is willing to push himself to the limit is the athlete that will win. Now, of course, I can push myself to my limit and not have a chance of beating some of the elite athletes.... but I'm talking elite vs. elite.
Quote:
"A lot of people run a race to see who is fastest. I run to see who has the most guts, who can punish himself into exhausting pace, and then at the end, punish himself even more. Nobody is going to win a 5,000 meter race after running an easy 2 miles. Not with me. If I lose forcing the pace all the way, well, at least I can live with myself."—Pre
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UFTriGator posted 26 weeks ago.
RV wrote:
It is easier to add endurance than it is to get fast.
+1 million
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-Matt
Not fast enough.
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kylie posted 26 weeks ago.
UFTriGator wrote:
RV wrote:It is easier to add endurance than it is to get fast.
+1 million
+1 more ;)
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Leroy Bonkers posted 26 weeks ago.
RV wrote:
It is easier to add endurance than it is to get fast.
yes sir
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Nutty posted 26 weeks ago.
Iron Dan wrote:
If one of the worlds best marathon runners came out and did a local Thanksgiving Day 5k, he would definitely mop the floor with everyone. However, if an elite marathoner came out and raced with elite 5k runners, he would most likely hold his own and who knows what would happen, but in that case, I would give the advantage to the elite 5k runners, but I still think that the marathon runner would hold his own and not be embarrassed.
I'm sorry to be this guy, but someone had to point this out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_Gebrselassie
-Alan
My fancy new blogitty blog.
http://therunningfridge.blogspot.com/
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tholosophy posted 26 weeks ago.
Nutty wrote:
Iron Dan wrote:If one of the worlds best marathon runners came out and did a local Thanksgiving Day 5k, he would definitely mop the floor with everyone. However, if an elite marathoner came out and raced with elite 5k runners, he would most likely hold his own and who knows what would happen, but in that case, I would give the advantage to the elite 5k runners, but I still think that the marathon runner would hold his own and not be embarrassed.
I'm sorry to be this guy, but someone had to point this out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_Gebrselassie
-Alan
I suppose that is one of those "special" circumstances...lol
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UFTriGator posted 26 weeks ago.
^^He went from short to long just like everyone else. You see that happen all the time. For example, Andy Potts is in the middle of doing it right now. He's been dominant on the ITU circuit for a long time, but now he's getting a little older and is moving on to long course. We probably won't see him doing strictly long course racing for several more years, but he's already started down that path with 70.3 last year.
______________________________________________
-Matt
Not fast enough.
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jsk85 posted 26 weeks ago.
From what I understand...it's a one-way progression
The damage to and strain on the muscles from doing IM's consistantly makes it nearly impossible to really race at an elite level in short course again.
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JohnieTri posted 26 weeks ago.
UFTriGator wrote:
^^He went from short to long just like everyone else. You see that happen all the time. For example, Andy Potts is in the middle of doing it right now. He's been dominant on the ITU circuit for a long time, but now he's getting a little older and is moving on to long course. We probably won't see him doing strictly long course racing for several more years, but he's already started down that path with 70.3 last year.
And he won!
-Johnie
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tbs_craig posted 26 weeks ago.
if you're not doing an IM cuz you're scared, then maybe you're a wuss ha. but i still have never met a triathlete that would say that about another triathlete.
If you feel you're geared for middle or even short distance do it. and you'll still be a bonafide triathlete
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tbs_craig posted 26 weeks ago.
as well as andy potts.... watch for Hunter Kemper to do the same after these olympics
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big 3 posted 26 weeks ago.
tholosophy wrote:
While I do this for myself, I don't want to be looked at like a wuss doing the "shorter" races, so that is why I ask.
If you line up the winners of all the various distances. Could you tell which person raced which distance just by looking at them?
Heck you could probably couldn't pick the winners or distances even if you took the top 20% of most big races.
So where do you find the wussies? Those would be the ones not racing :-)
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stewarba posted 26 weeks ago.
big 3 wrote:
So where do you find the wussies? Those would be the ones not racing :-)
+1
Preach it my brother
Pain is the sensation of weakness leaving the body!
This has probably been phrased and asked before, but I struggled with what to search for. If you know of a thread, please point me to it.
So, my inquiry is really about the capability of these two forms of triathletes. I have gathered that the IM and other distance triathaletes train like a second job. I also know that their bodies are geared towards distance. Because I will focus on Olympic distance, I was curious what the picture would look like when an IM trained triathlete drops down and does an Olympic distance. Do they eaisly wipe the floor clean, or are the two races so different that someone who trains for the Olympic distance will finish faster than the IM trained.
So in a succinct fashion, can I compare the two events much like swimming, where the distance guys can't compete with the sprinters in the sprint events (50 free / 100s), and vice versa, the sprint guys are terrible at the distance events. Or, is it just the case that the IM trained destroy all.
While I do this for myself, I don't want to be looked at like a wuss doing the "shorter" races, so that is why I ask.