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How important are these back to back workouts?

Pete L.'s picture
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started by Pete L. on April 7, 2008

So I've recently changed workouts from one that was made from a local coach, to a program from Rich Strauss (online) because the coach only gave me half of the training plan.

This new plan has my doing long ride on saturday, and a shorter, more varied ride on sunday, with short easy run tacked on there. Then I usually get Monday as a rest day, depending on the week.

Now for religious reasons, I typically don't train on Sundays, and would prefer to use that as a rest day.

Is it detrimental to my race to move that rest day one day forward, and miss this back-to-back workout? Or is the back-to-back less important than I'm assuming?

Thanks for your advice.

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RV's picture
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RV posted 14 weeks ago.

I really like the back to back rides - You can also read about it in the EN Library - Click on the link for 'The Book' It is the Coaching Manifesto.

Also feel free to post it on Endurance Nation forum - this topic has come up - they will help you adjust as necessary.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

brittda's picture
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brittda posted 14 weeks ago.

That is what I have done....usually my long ride of the week on Saturday, and my long run on Sunday (with a spin in there as well depending on the week). Monday was off/rest. I always felt it was helpful if not just mentally to know I could do it. Plus when I was working, the weekend was always the best time to get long extended work outs in.

RV's picture
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RV posted 14 weeks ago.

One of the premises of the plan is the splitting up the long run from the bike. Hence the LR on Thursday and the bigger bike focus on the weekend. But, the rides are not excessively long - basically just get in, get the prescribed work done and have time left to attend to life things.
The run on Thursday is so that you are running on fresher legs, so you get a really solid long run. The Sunday bike has a brick run following - so you can feel the run on tired legs.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

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Leroy Bonkers posted 14 weeks ago.

I also try to stay away from Sunday workouts so that I can attend church, although if Saturday is a rain out my wife usually lets me get in a make up ride on Sunday afternoon. The short answer is that whatever work/family/faith constraints you have... that is your reality and you have to schedule to match. Resting on the day of rest is great!

I followed the EN/Rich Strauss "Basic Week" when preping for IMFL but I never did any Sat/Sun back to back rides, although I took 3-4 half days off work to ride and hit it pretty hard on Saturdays. And while we are on the topic I think "The Book" coaching manifesto should be admitted to the canon of scripture as at least Deutro-canonical (like Tobias, or Maccabees ;-)

Sure, back to back rides MAY be beneficial (I'm not convinced), but they are by no means mandatory.

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brittda posted 14 weeks ago.

RV wrote:
One of the premises of the plan is the splitting up the long run from the bike. Hence the LR on Thursday and the bigger bike focus on the weekend. But, the rides are not excessively long - basically just get in, get the prescribed work done and have time left to attend to life things.
The run on Thursday is so that you are running on fresher legs, so you get a really solid long run. The Sunday bike has a brick run following - so you can feel the run on tired legs.

I have heard that this works, just never tried it (in my "extensive" trainig for 2 whole IM's). I may give this a try next time.

tsilcyc's picture
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tsilcyc posted 14 weeks ago.

I have not worked with Rich or EN but I like his philosophy on training. From what I've read, he believes that intensity training is the key to their producing better than average results in their athletes. My guess is that the back to back workouts are to maximize your training within your time constraints. But breaking them up isn't going to cause you to fail so do what you need to do.

Have your written them though?

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Pete L.'s picture
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Pete L. posted 14 weeks ago.

I haven't written them in EN yet. I'm having my account upgraded. I'll check with them, and see if they have any ideas on getting a similar benefit moving the monday rest day to sunday. Thanks everyone.

kkocan's picture
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kkocan posted 14 weeks ago.

One thing I think they are trying to do is get you used to running on tired legs, after all if you are doing IM then your legs will be fatigued when you start the run. When I was with the Program with Pat M before it became EN I almost always had a long bike on saturday with a long run on sunday. Many times the plan notes would comment that the run was going to be tough due to the riding saturday. My coach now has me in a bike focus doing a longish (3hrs) ride saturday with 7 mile brick runs and then a straight long bike on sundays (5-6hrs). In a few weeks the saturdays will become straight bikes (3-4hrs) with sundays becoming bricks (6hr ride/4-5 mile run).
For me I really like the back to back big days because they get you used to running on tired legs so that come the big day when you hop off the bike and start out on the run you should be used to that feeling and know what to expect and where your pace should be for the run. Plus with monday being a rest day it really makes monday the best day of the week :)

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VA Beach Shamrock Marathon
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WV Mountaineer HIM
IM Wisconsin

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tsilcyc posted 14 weeks ago.

kkocan wrote:
Plus with monday being a rest day it really makes monday the best day of the week :)

I SOOOO look forward to Monday. ;)

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RV posted 14 weeks ago.

kkocan wrote:
One thing I think they are trying to do is get you used to running on tired legs, after all if you are doing IM then your legs will be fatigued when you start the run. When I was with the Program with Pat M before it became EN I almost always had a long bike on saturday with a long run on sunday...

Their philosophy now is long run on Thursday and long bike on Sat with a second shorter bike on Sunday with a 30 min brick run.
This way you are fresh for your key workouts. That is very important.
The short brick run is enough to see what it takes to get your running legs back without going long. This approach is much better for recovery as each workout works into the next.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

Anton's picture
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Anton posted 14 weeks ago.

I've done it both ways...B to B's and split long workouts, in separate years, for a whole IM training cycle.
Had much better results with the Back to Backs.

"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" - Vincent Van Gogh
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gfd posted 14 weeks ago.

I have only done the back to backs. Splitting the long days makes sense to maximize the efforts. For me, as a 1st time IM trainer last year, the back to back days (Iron weekends) were a great help physically and mentally. I gained a lot of confidence was able to start to get my mind around what I was going to do. None of my previous training had ever approached the level of doing a century ride followed by an hour run on day 1 and a 20 mile run followed by a 45 minute spin on day 2. If I decide to do another IM next year, I am going to follow the same plan.

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kkocan posted 14 weeks ago.

RV wrote:

Their philosophy now is long run on Thursday and long bike on Sat with a second shorter bike on Sunday with a 30 min brick run.
This way you are fresh for your key workouts. That is very important.
The short brick run is enough to see what it takes to get your running legs back without going long. This approach is much better for recovery as each workout works into the next.

Now my coach has me doing my long run on Wednesdays (2 hrs) with back to back long bike on the weekends with one of them being a brick. For the next few weeks its a 3 hr ride on sat followed by a 7 mile brick and then long (5-6) hr ride sunday. In a few weeks it changes to a 3-4 hr ride on sat with a long brick (6+ hrs ride and 4 mile run) on sunday.

I do like having the long run though mid week as I'm a little fresher to get in some quality miles.

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2008 Main Races:
VA Beach Shamrock Marathon
Desoto TTT
WV Mountaineer HIM
IM Wisconsin

kkocan's picture
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kkocan posted 14 weeks ago.

tsilcyc wrote:
kkocan wrote:
Plus with monday being a rest day it really makes monday the best day of the week :)

I SOOOO look forward to Monday. ;)

Considering how my new plan has me cycling through non standard weeks I never get a weekend off, so while I used to hate Monday's now I loooove them.

________________________________________________
2008 Main Races:
VA Beach Shamrock Marathon
Desoto TTT
WV Mountaineer HIM
IM Wisconsin