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Half IM Pace and Training

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started by bgreinke on April 2, 2008

I just raced and completed my second half IM this past weekend and for the second time, my run did not work out like I'd hoped/expected. I'm a mid-pack age grouper so I'm not expecting to win any races, but I'm always out to try and set a new PR. As such I have two questions.

First, if when I do my long runs at roughly race distance (14-15 miles) I am averaging roughly 8:00 - 8:15 min per mile, what would a typical race pace be? I was thinking in the 8:30 range, but my first half was 10:02 and this past weekend was 9:48. In my first race, I bonked at mile 12 and in the last race I was walking for a minute or so every half mile after mile 3. I know it depends on how the bike/swim go and how well I hydrate and eat, but I'm just wondering if people think my expectations are too high.

Second, I definately want to run faster. After reading a bit and thinking about what training to change, I've come to two conclusions: more bricks and more long runs (there's no getting out of old fashioned hard work). My question is how many long runs at or above race distance (and how much above race distance) and how many long bricks (including how long the bike/run should be) would you think would be best for training for a half IM? Also, which workout (long runs vs bricks) would you think would give me the most benefit? Any other suggestions (interval types, weights, ect)?

My next planned half-IM will be in early October so I've got plenty of time to put any plan into action, I just need to try and figure out where I'm headed and then go there. Thanks for the suggestions.

Braden

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jsk85 posted 22 weeks ago.

I don't have much to offer since I have the exact same issue. I am more interested in seeing others' responses to this, especially part 2.

I always assumed it was the bike which killed my run time in the 2 1/2s I've completed. I'm by no means an accomplished distance cyclist and so I expended too much energy on the bike leg to be able to even come close to the race pace I trained at. I'm not sure what your biking background is. So this season I was also planning on doing more bricks to work on the leg adjustment from bike to run as well as just improving my bike efficiency, mainly by teaching myself to ride at a higher cadence and to throw in more long rides. I am not doing another 1/2 until next year (my A race this year is olympic), but I have already gotten out and ridden a 40 mile ride and plan to keep building on it since I'm only in base1 of my training plan. I figure that my A oly race this year is really more like a B race on my 3 year plan to build to my first IM (hopefully in a decent time).

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RV posted 22 weeks ago.

My guess is that you are going to hard on the bike - which forces you to walk or significantly slow down on the run - where you lose all the time gained by hammering the bike.
Going a little more conservatively on the bike would prevent blowing up on the run.
At a HIM distance and greater you do need to consider pacing especially on the bike - unlike short course where you can go all out the entire time.
Bricks are only necessary to help you feel how the legs respond after biking - a mile or so into the run and you pretty much have your legs back. 30 minutes is sufficient for a brick run. You don't want to do long runs >60 min off of a long bike. That will start to have recovery implications and hinder your next hard workout.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

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TriSooner posted 22 weeks ago.

bgreinke wrote:
First, if when I do my long runs at roughly race distance (14-15 miles) I am averaging roughly 8:00 - 8:15 min per mile, what would a typical race pace be? I was thinking in the 8:30 range . . .

What jumps out at me is what you didn't talk about: The bike. What is your bike effort and pace like before you started your run? If you can run low 8's at the 13.1mile distance - just the run - but slow down to 9's and 10's per mile once off the bike, I would look at whether you are pushing too much on the bike. You can only go as so hard and still have some left for the run. Next, I would look at your cadence. If you are holding a decent pace but mashing at 50-70rpms, you are blowing out the legs before the run. Possibly consider spinning at a higher cadence. Finally, you may need more bricks (as you noted). Not just more, but better. I think bricks tear you up more than build you up, so be judicious with them. I wouldn't recommend more than one bike-to-run brick per week, and then 5k tops at race pace.

bgreinke wrote:
My question is how many long runs at or above race distance (and how much above race distance) and how many long bricks (including how long the bike/run should be) would you think would be best for training for a half IM? Also, which workout (long runs vs bricks) would you think would give me the most benefit? Any other suggestions (interval types, weights, ect)?

For a half: I would probably do 4-6 13.1 mile runs at race pace up to one week out from the half. I would treat those runs as discrete workouts as if I were only training for a half marathon. For example, the Saturday run would be 13.1 or so at race pace. For bricks, I do 100k bikes followed by 5k track runs, typically on a Sunday. Then take about 48 hours off. Which would give you the most benefit: Bricks or Long Run? I'd say bricks. You've been doing the long runs and it turns out it doesn't transfer to the race. Look into brick workouts specifically for Half IM. But ideally you would do both, possibly on alternate weekends. One weekend the key workout is the brick; the next is the long run. The key to a brick is to simulate - I think - the first 5k on the run. This is completely anecdotal from my experience, but the first 5k in long course is a killer. After the legs flush out the lactic acid in the quads from the bike, the hammies take over and it feels more like a normal run. So tear it up on the training ride (40-50 miles) then focus for 5k on the run.

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jerallen posted 22 weeks ago.

there are a number of issues to consider. I think a few have been addressed. How is your fueling going? Are you cramping on the run, what is causing you to slow down from your norm pace. What is your pacing on the BRICs?

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Ronbo posted 22 weeks ago.

A SLOW run split could be from a swim/ bike pace that was more appropriate for Olympic distance or from poor hydration/ nutrition, but you said you BONKED. That's a serious depletion of energy stores or hydration.

I believe we SLOW DOWN from moderate fatigue, but we BONK from seriously low fluid/ nutritional stores.

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kylie posted 22 weeks ago.

+1 to RV
maybe I should just have my sig say that.... I seem to type it regularly :)

But yes, check out your bike effort. You should be able to be much closer to your run training paces on race day.

Miles of Life --- Powered by MarkyV

bgreinke's picture
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bgreinke posted 22 weeks ago.

My bike pace this past weekend was an average of 20.3 MPH at somewhere between 88-93 rpm. I was conciously trying not to push the bike too hard knowing the run was coming up, but it is possible I overdid it. My training bike rides were generally averaging somewhere around 20.5 and that included all the stop/starts which tend to lower your arerage a few tenths. All in all, I didn't try to mash the bike. I did drink way too much of the gulf of mexico on swim and did have a bit of an upset stomach. It may have impacted my food intake, but I think this time I got the hydration right (or at least better). In my first half my nutrition plan went out the window since I was riding rolling hills that I was not used to and consequently I didn't drink/eat like I wanted do. At about mile 12 of that race I had to actually stop for 5 minutes or so I was so wrecked and when I did start back up, I couldn't run for more than about 15 seconds. It may not have been a true bonk, but I think it was close.

So back on the bike question, if I'm riding 20.5 MPH on a long training ride (60+ miles), doesn't that seem like I should be in the same range for a race or should I be conciously trying to back off another half MPH or so?

Braden

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RV posted 22 weeks ago.

How are you fueling up pre-race - morning of?
On the bike taking in: Sports drink? Water, gels? Fueling same as for training?

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

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Anton posted 22 weeks ago.

+1 to jedi master RV. What is gained on the bike, for many, is often lost on the run. Also, I'd consider doing at least one if not two overdistance runs in training...15 to 18 miles at your training pace.

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bgreinke posted 22 weeks ago.

This past weekend...
Pre-race: 2 packets of oatmeal, banana, sport beans & gatorade ~ 700-800 cals
During Bike - water & gatorade (20 oz each), 2 gels & sport beans ~ 350 cals
Run - gatorade

I probably should've had 2 more gels on the bike, but my stomach was feeling a bit off and the thought of dropping something that sweet just wasn't working. The same issue on the run - all fluid at aid stations as I just couldn't stomach the gels. I was planning 3 gels, some sport beans and possibly a fig newton or two. Aside from being a little short on the gels, the bike was pretty much the same as during training, but the right was light on calories, however the issue in this latest race wasn't so much feeling tired as the off stomach and tired/sore legs.

Braden

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mikem posted 22 weeks ago.

Another item to consider is whether you were using a tri bike or an adapted road bike, the more upright position on a road bike uses more of the hip abductors which are needed for the run. you then start the run on musles which are already tired hence slower times.
The steeper position on a tribike helps your "running" mustles come off the bike fresher and you should be able to hold a faster run pace.

Ride it like you stole it.

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RV posted 22 weeks ago.

Pre-race intake looks okay - maybe a bit light on the bike - but that is dependent upon your size and rate that you burn calories - and more importantly the rate that you can absorb calories.

What type of cadence on the bike? A low cadence does make the transition to run harder. But not something that would force you into a walk.

Not that unusual to take in mostly fluids on the run. Even with the stomach being off - sounds like you were able to continue to take in calories.

Did you taper for the race? Rest? Sounding more like fatigue.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

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Ronbo posted 22 weeks ago.

If your stomach was feeling a little off, I'd suspect you didn't absorb as many calories as you normally would. You may have put the correct amount of calories in, but a good portion of it remained in the gut.

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GGehrke posted 22 weeks ago.

Something I haven't really seen anyone mention yet is that you have a pretty significant disconnect in this statement...

bgreinke wrote:
Second, I definately want to run faster. After reading a bit and thinking about what training to change, I've come to two conclusions: more bricks and more long runs.

You're not going to get faster with long runs. I mean, you'll probably continue to improve in general, but racing faster is the result of training faster. If you want to drop your run times, do shorter, faster runs.

All the comments on nutrition and whatnot are very valid if that's your limiting factor, and doing bricks is important for getting to where you feel good on your feet after a ride -- both of these were areas where I fell short for my HIM and I walked a lot, but once you've got that handled, fast runs are the only way to drop your times.

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kona_expat posted 22 weeks ago.

RV on the nose.

I disagree that 18 mile runs are necessary for good HIM performance. 14-15 should do the trick. I mean why would you go further than that? You don't do 30 mile runs for marathons...

As RV said, bike pacing is KEY. Once you know what you SHOULD do on the bike, you can then tailor your nutrition to that effort level. Most people can get by with 250 cal./hour on the bike during a HIM, no matter their size. You just aren't out there long enough for nutrition to be a huge impact unless you seriously UNDER or OVER do it.

Liquid calories are always easier than solids.

One other thing--HIM race rehearsal should be in your training plan. Do one about 3 weeks out from a race. You don't need to swim--it's fairly short. You bike 56 miles AT RACE PACE and then run 5-6 miles, also at race pace. This will tell you a LOT about what you should be able to do under race conditions. Since this is a fairly stressful session, make sure and take the day after it off.

What is your bike training? Whereas I said I wouldn't necessarily do >14 mile long runs, you can and probably SHOULD do overdistance long rides, maximum 4 hours is all you should need.

A good cyclist should be able to get pretty close to their open half mary time in a HIM, so if you blow up on the run, odds are you either aren't that strong on the bike or you just went WAY too hard, as others have said.

From a power perspective, I find I run well in a HIM if my bike effort is around 80-85% of FTP (Functional Threshold Power), which is like about the same % of your LTHR if you don't train with power. Thing is, it's pretty easy to ride for 2.5-3 hours HARDER than that if you don't have to run afterwards, which is why I guess a lot of folks try and ride that hard and then think their run won't suffer. 2 words: IT WILL.

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bgreinke posted 22 weeks ago.

This was actually my first race on the new tri-bike. I've had it since early December so I logged plenty of long rides on it over the past few months. I did taper the week before. Last run was about 36 min on Wed and last bike was 1 hr on Thurs (other than a 20 min recovery ride Sat morning at very low intensity). 2 weeks out I did do some very similar to what Kona Expat suggested and did a 2:15 ride and a 0:55 brick run. I was able to hold the roughly 8 min per mile pace and I think the ride was pretty close to how I rode in the race, though it was 30 minutes shorter. I will say due to travel and other committments my long bike rides suffered towerds the end of my training. The longest I got was 3:15 when I wanted to peak out at 3:45.

To answer GGehrke's comment about running faster. At this point I don't want to get faster than what my long runs are at (though that would be nice), I want to improve my run split to get it closer to my long run pace. I'm already doing interval training during the week and some of those shorter workouts I'm running in the 7:15 min/mile range.

It may be a combination of a lot of the factors mentioned above. I appreciate all the input as this has given me a lot think about as I plan my training for October. Thanks to everyone.

Braden

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thegman posted 21 weeks ago.

Hi guys - I had problems on the run too on a just completed 1/2 IM. Rather than hijack this thread have started a separate one at http://www.trifuel.com/forum/13034/bad-cramps. Any help appreciated!

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Milesofsmiles15 posted 21 weeks ago.

how often were you running for training? i am a runner converting to a triathlete (so i am obviously biased, and likely wrong) but from what i have read on here many people only run 3 or so times a week and expect to be able to run times that people who run everyday run. yes the biking will help your running cardio, but the running cardio will also help your biking. if you felt that strong off the bike, then maybe shift some of that training time to running.