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Finding your best cadence

lloydte's picture
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started by lloydte on March 26, 2008

Hi guys,

Just wondering if some one can give me some input on cadence. Is there a way of working out the 'best' cadence for you as an individual?

Everywhere I read always gives ranges for cadences but surely there must be a scientific method of determining it exactly for your individual body. I do have a power meter fitted so maybe that can be of some use.....

Cheers

Tim

Tags: Cadence
ChunkyB's picture
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ChunkyB posted 6 weeks ago.

There's no real "best" cadence for all situations. It depends on how long you're riding, the steepness, and plenty of other things I'm sure. For what it's worth, I think Lance usually stayed between 90 and 100 for most of his TdF career, but there were also people (Jan Ulrich) who would climb around 60 rpm, so I guess to each his own.

I've read a few places that say that 90 is a good cycling and running cadence for triathlon. I don't know if that works for everyone, but I'm trying to get up that high.

"The melting point of wax means nothing to me": Thrice

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UFTriGator's picture
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UFTriGator posted 6 weeks ago.

The higher you can go, the better. There will be less strain on your legs from pushing a bigger gear than you need to. If you bounce or feel like you're wasting energy, then you're going too fast. The more you train, the more sure you'll be of where your cadence belongs. Everyone's different and your number can change. I train at somewhere around 100 on the bike and 96 on the run, but I race more like 105 on the bike and 100 on the run. Last year I probably biked at 90 and ran at just under 90.

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-Matt
Not fast enough.

ChunkyB's picture
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ChunkyB posted 6 weeks ago.

Also, if you're bouncing a lot, it probably means you need to work on your pedal stroke, like pedaling more in a circle. Going as fast as you can without bouncing is probably good advice, especially if you're doing longer distance races.

"The melting point of wax means nothing to me": Thrice

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GGehrke posted 6 weeks ago.

If you're looking for scientific, then the power meter can be used, but your level of accuracy will depend a lot on how rigorous you want to be with the data gathering.

If you ride the same course a couple times, at the same time of day, in the same weather, with the same rest -- and then do it a couple more times at different cadences -- you can plot avg power vs. cadence and find your peak. I suppose a trainer would be a great place for this, but I would want some indication of real terrain as well.

However, you would probably also have to be sure to pedal CONSTANTLY at this cadence such that the cadence plot is a flat line with no 'coasting.' I tapped my last 30 rides into excel and plotted Power as a function of cadence and, gee whiz, the higher my cadence, the higher my average power. Without subtracting out time spent coasting, this is meaningless.

Then I got a little geekier, just to see if any meaning could be extracted from normal ride logs, and loaded the raw data from my most recent ride into excel. I made a sort of histogram, calculating the average power produced within each 'bin' of cadences (i.e. avg power between 70-75rpm, avg power 75-80...). The resulting graph shows that my best power/cadence is at 60-65rpm, which I know is not true IN GENERAL. I'm sure this just reflects the fact that I climbed a 1200ft mountain steep enough that I was grinding along at 65rpm. Loaded in a flatter ride that I did TT style - same uncorrelated result. Plotted average speed per bin rather than power and got a much nicer result, showing a bit more of a "Bell curve." This still doesn't account for the rolling terrain, gearing, etc. though, so I'm not convinced. I think with data from specific test rides it could be a useful method of analysis, but getting the data is still the hard part. Perhaps if I concatenated the data from ALL of my rides, I might get something a bit nicer, but that'll have to wait - loading and crunching those numbers would take me a good long while.

I'm sure you could probably model this with a super complex equation for body dimensions and such, but as I think about it, you would really need to even know things like how heavy each segment of your leg is (to calculate things like the force required to overcome the inertia of your thigh at the top and bottom of each stroke!) so it's probably pretty unrealistic to come up with one.

In the end, everything I've ever seen seems to lead back to the "self selected" cadence as being the best for the individual, simple as that. In my experience, it's pretty difficult to try to control your cadence, so I focus more on other features like an efficient "spinning" stroke and keeping aware of when it is or isn't appropriate to coast (i.e. don't coast until you've actually crested a hill and are back up to speed, start soft pedaling before starting up a subsequent hill, things like that)

I hate these type of questions because you just caused me to spend something like the last hour working on this when I have a paper to write :P

Grant

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GGehrke posted 6 weeks ago.

Oh, and in case anyone wants the graphs...
I couldn't upload the whole excel doc because it's too big, but if anyone's interested in doing this analysis for yourself let me know.

lloydte's picture
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lloydte posted 5 weeks ago.

Thanks for the info guys and GGehrke looks like i have some graphs to plot!!!!

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cjhoffmn posted 5 weeks ago.

I think you're onto a good thought with plotting the bins, but it seems you'll need many rides on the same terrain to tease out the relationship. I'm still doing indoor riding and have just gotten a powertap (yeeha) and I'll try the grand experiment with you to see if I can make a meaningful plot off my trainer rides' data.

Aside from exporting individual activities out of PowerAgent, anyone happen to know where the file is for PowerAgent data to try to get at the data a little more easily?

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Triguy98 posted 5 weeks ago.

GGehrke wrote:

In the end, everything I've ever seen seems to lead back to the "self selected" cadence as being the best for the individual, simple as that. In my experience, it's pretty difficult to try to control your cadence, so I focus more on other features like an efficient "spinning" stroke and keeping aware of when it is or isn't appropriate to coast spend something like the last hour working on this when I have a paper to write :P

But proper spinning technique, especially for new to intermediate cyclist can have a huge impact on cadence. I, for one, believe cadence to be very trainable for newer riders. Spins ups and singel leg drills can take a rider that just didnt know any better pedaling along at 65 rpms, and improve him to a 90 rpm smooth spinner. I know my own cadence when I started riding was around 80, now my "self selected" cadence is 90- 100.

Life is short. Play hard and get dirty doing it.

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RV posted 5 weeks ago.

I also started out more of a masher on the pedals - about 75 RPM. I now ride at 93.
There is an advantage more for a triathlete riding at a higher cadence than by a roadie.
That being having to run off the bike. Most run cadences are around 90 foot strikes a minute. Having your pedal cadence about the same as your run cadence makes that transition easier.

RV

It takes a long time to get good. - Scott Molina
Slow is smooth; smooth is fast. - Rich Strauss

cjhoffmn's picture
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cjhoffmn posted 5 weeks ago.

I've been thinking of this alot and trying to record data that will be helpful to this cause. The thinking seems right to me here, that as triathletes, we'll be better served with higher cadences to use more slow twitch on the bike to save the legs for the run.

That being said, we all probably have a measure of our optimal cadence at the moment - I'm much like GG and RV above - when I first hopped on my bike last summer training for my first TRI I was really happy at about 75 RPM. After much work during this base training season, I'm much smoother and happier at more like 85 RPM. I haven't, until now, measured my output at the cadence to determine if I'm doing better or worse at the higher cadence. It seems it would be helpful to have as much power as possible at a higher cadence to maximize the benefits.

So here's my data gathering plan, which I'd like to start as a community data gathering exercise if those with power meters are willing:

1 - only gather data from rides on my trainer for consistency
2 - Select a gear that I can spin a) @ 80 RPM with some comfort, but still a little work and b) up to 105 RPM without bouncing around. (off hand, given that I'm not at my bike right now, I think this would be 2nd biggest ring on cassette and on the large ring up front)
3 - do a 5 min warm up
4 - Intervals:
a.) 2 Min Spinning at 78 - 82 RPM
b.) 2 Min Spinning at 83- 87 RPM
.....
f.) 2 Min Spinning at 103 - 107 RPM

Once I've gathered say 10 or 12 of those rides, then I'd think some meaningful averages could be run of the power at each cadence range.

I invite comments to the data structure first, any thoughts or suggestions are welcome, the hope that a few others might gather the same data to see 1.) if its helpful 2.) see if the combined data yields any particular insights.

If nothing else, would be a 17 min easy ride that might help determine a sense of change in ability to generate power.

Thoughts?

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UFTriGator posted 5 weeks ago.

cjhoffmn wrote:
off hand, given that I'm not at my bike right now, I think this would be 2nd biggest ring on cassette and on the large ring up front

That gearing is bad for your bike. I do the majority of my trainer work (not counting CT) on the small ring.

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-Matt
Not fast enough.

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djohannsen posted 5 weeks ago.

lloydte wrote:

Just wondering if some one can give me some input on cadence. Is there a way of working out the 'best' cadence for you as an individual?

I'm more than a little late to this party, but thought that I would throw out an interesting link... Take a look at this thread at cycling news:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters09-20

In the above discussion is an interesting little fact/opinion: "The hour record which involves no forward acceleration after the start has been many times in the past 100 years, and always with a cadence between 103 and 108 rpm. That suggests to me that this is the optimal cadence for sustained, very steady efforts."

Though, in the following paragraph the author goes on to say: "Ironman Triathlon winners use much lower cadences than road cyclists, typically around 80 rpm. In Ironman Triathlon, efficient use of fuel and oxygen is a key element of success. This type of efficiency is optimized at cadences lower than those typically employed by road racers, and Ironman cyclists, even those who win, don't ride quite as fast as equally elite athletes who compete exclusively on the bike."

I feel the most comfortable at somewhere between 105-110 rpm, with a slight drop on climbs. I don't have a powermeter, but with several years of cycling and many thousands of miles I feel pretty comfortable saying that this is where I am at my best.

Dave

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tri-ac posted 5 weeks ago.

i think cadence is eminently teachable. i changed my cadence after coming to "cycling" [as opposed to just riding my bike]. I used to ride the hardest sustainable gear on my commutes. but, on the advice of a friend, i left the chain in the small front ring for a few weeks and taught my legs to spin a little faster. when i started doing training, i learned more about cadence and how it's helpful to be in the 90's. and it works for me

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acoulsonwright posted 4 weeks ago.

I recall Dave Scott saying on one of his triathlon training tips videos he did for active.com....most of them are on Youtube (and very helpful).....86-92rpms on the bike was ideal for most triathletes. I have also heard that your biking cadence should mirror your running cadence, as Gator said above.